AirSea Battle and A2/AD

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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This is another. Bill Geertz apparently has become science fiction writer instead of a defense analyst.
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I mean, a lot of it is probably true -- but what they are describing as conspiracy or secrecy is really just long term planning and strategy... maybe something they're terrified by, given the constraints of election cycles. A lot of what they describe about China is really just common sense when one has an understanding of China's history and geopolitical realities. I suppose it just goes to show they don't have any good China analysts.

This one particular passage probably demonstrates the highest degree of arrogance:

“We believed that American aid to a fragile China whose leaders thought like us would help China become a democratic and peaceful power without ambitions of regional or even global dominance,” Pillsbury wrote.

So, did people in the US govt at the time want China to be like them in the ways that they believe matter, but also be completely subordinate to them? Was that their vague, long term strategy or hope? Give me a break, it makes me wonder if this Pillsbury guy has ever heard of realpolitik.

There are a few things that are hilariously wrong of course -- at this stage there seems to be no indication that China is seeking to export its way of governance or even its economic structure to other countries, certainly not in the way the Soviet Union was. China's mostly content letting countries do their own thing so long as national interests aren't overruled. And it's also a facepalm worthy mistake to take defectors at their word given they'll say whatever they want to make themselves look good.

And of course, the big elephant in the room is the idea of China "surpassing" really creeps some fellas out, even though economic and even military eclipse doesn't necessarily mean geopolitical dominance and certainly not the degree of geopolitical dominance the US currently has. It's funny that the guy talks about hawks in China, I'm sure he's heard about the pot and kettle
 
Basically the strategy these days is for someone who claims to be an expert on China to tell everyone what the Chinese are thinking and then it becomes the bible. China did not come up with the "string of pearls" concept. It was an American. But now Indians act as if there is a Chinese plot against them called String of Pearls. It's the same as when you hear that Chinese are plotting to take over the world. I'm Chinese. I have never been invited to such a meeting. Same thing but because now a so-called expert says it's happening, it must be true.

Well, there is no reason to underestimate India's savvy in pursuing a strategy China itself pursued. India may well be playing along with the China threat to milk as many advantageous deals from the US and others as possible. China played along with the Soviet threat to do the same. India most likely also has in mind what China had, which is through this process transform itself into another pole in a multi-polar world. Also, regardless of whether there is a "string of pearls" China strategy or not, India is the natural dominating power for the Indian Ocean/Bay of Bengal/Arabian Sea. There might come a day when India is as wary of Diego Garcia as China is of Okinawa. Speaking of which the history of Diego Garcia is much more sordid than that of Okinawa and the Ryukyu Islands, though it has nothing to do with India.

This is another. Bill Geertz apparently has become science fiction writer instead of a defense analyst.
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China Secret Strategy Exposed
Bill Geertz

Actually pure propagandist/spin master is more like it. Every fact that appears in that article has been in the public domain for a while, the only "fact" that's new is the supposed secret strategy which amounts to a conspiracy theory. It's a grandiose version of the "China stole American jobs" thinking when in reality it is American bosses outsourced American jobs.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Well, there is no reason to underestimate India's savvy in pursuing a strategy China itself pursued. India may well be playing along with the China threat to milk as many advantageous deals from the US and others as possible. China played along with the Soviet threat to do the same. India most likely also has in mind what China had, which is through this process transform itself into another pole in a multi-polar world. Also, regardless of whether there is a "string of pearls" China strategy or not, India is the natural dominating power for the Indian Ocean/Bay of Bengal/Arabian Sea. There might come a day when India is as wary of Diego Garcia as China is of Okinawa. Speaking of which the history of Diego Garcia is much more sordid than that of Okinawa and the Ryukyu Islands, though it has nothing to do with India.

You can do that with anything because that's what spin is. I'm taking about the tail that wags the dog or confusing fiction with reality. A lot of historical anti-Chinese sentiment in Southeast Asia was started because the British shipped opium on Chinese merchant ships to make it look like it was the Chinese and not the British selling and getting people addicted to opium. So when people got angry, the British pointed the finger at the Chinese thus why Southeast Asia has a history of anti-Chinese pogroms and slaughters. That wouldn't have happened if the lies weren't put out there. It's irrelevant if the leaders of these countries knew or didn't know because it was the people of those countries that massacred Chinese because they believed in the lie.
 
You can do that with anything because that's what spin is. I'm taking about the tail that wags the dog or confusing fiction with reality. A lot of historical anti-Chinese sentiment in Southeast Asia was started because the British shipped opium on Chinese merchant ships to make it look like it was the Chinese and not the British selling and getting people addicted to opium. So when people got angry, the British pointed the finger at the Chinese thus why Southeast Asia has a history of anti-Chinese pogroms and slaughters. That wouldn't have happened if the lies weren't put out there. It's irrelevant if the leaders of these countries knew or didn't know because it was the people of those countries that massacred Chinese because they believed in the lie.

There should be no expectations when telling a liar not to lie or a bully not to bully, especially if you are the target. China can either decline the deals that set itself up to be framed, or see building up goodwill and presenting its side of the story better, louder, and making sure it is heard as a necessary part of those deals. Also, as many political campaigns have demonstrated, a good offense is the best defense when it comes to slander.
 

Brumby

Major
The recent postings on this thread seems to be anything and everything except about the subject matter. Can we please revert to the subject proper provided there is any of substance rather than political posturing.
 

shen

Senior Member
A nice summary of the Fravel/Twomey paper linked earlier.

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and this interesting comment.
"
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Pol-mil contacts between the US and PRC occur regularly including so-called "Track 2" meetings between non-government subject matter experts in national security and military affairs. The Chinese are open about their military objectives. They are developing the kind of long-range intervention naval force the US has and for the same reason."
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
An interesting read.

What would happen if U.S. nuclear attack submarines—some of the most sophisticated and expensive American weapons of war—suddenly became obsolete? Imagine a scenario where these important systems became the hunted instead of the hunter, or just as technologically backward as the massive battleships of years past. Think that sounds completely insane? If advances in big data and new detection methods fuse with the anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) ambitions of nations like China and Russia, naval planners around the world might have to go back to the drawing board.

Submarines: The New Battleship?

The revelation is alluded to in a recent report by the Washington, D.C.–based Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments (
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) called “
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.”
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as the “think-tank’s think-tank,” CSBA has crafted in the last decade many of the most detailed and sophisticated reports regarding the most pressing national-security challenges around—sometimes years before anyone else.
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?
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before it was in the news.

In a piece for TNI, the report’s author, Bryan Clark,
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:

Since the Cold War submarines, particularly quiet American ones, have been considered largely immune to adversary A2/AD capabilities. But the ability of submarines to hide through quieting alone will decrease as each successive decibel of noise reduction becomes more expensive and as new detection methods mature that rely on phenomena other than sounds emanating from a submarine. These techniques include lower frequency active sonar and non-acoustic methods that detect submarine wakes or (at short ranges) bounce laser or light-emitting diode (LED) light off a submarine hull. The physics behind most of these alternative techniques has been known for decades, but was not exploited because computer processors were too slow to run the detailed models needed to see small changes in the environment caused by a quiet submarine. Today, “big data” processing enables advanced navies to run sophisticated oceanographic models in real time to exploit these detection techniques. As they become more prevalent, they could make some coastal areas too hazardous for manned submarines.

Could modern attack subs soon face the same problem as surface combatants around the world, where
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?

Breaking Down the Dilemma:

“We need to think about a new strategy for undersea warfare,”
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. “Right now we tend to rely on submarines doing tactical operations on their own, in an environment where they can operate largely with impunity. All those things are going to change in the future...”

So what are the United States and other nations to do if Clark’s predictions come to pass?

Consider the problem in these terms: Washington is laying down two Virginia Class Attack submarines a year at a cost of roughly $1.8 billion per boat. These advanced subs were to be the backbone of Washington’s evolving Air-Sea Battle operational concept, recently renamed and now being retooled as the “Joint Concept for Access and Maneuver in the Global Commons” (JAM-GC). With even more expensive U.S. aircraft carriers facing mounting challenges, thanks to A2/AD weapons systems—
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, Iran, Russia and others—undersea platforms like submarines were to help Washington ensure it was one step ahead. While not completely replacing the capabilities of America’s carrier battle groups, U.S. attack subs armed with land-attack cruise missiles (TLAMS) would retain at least a portion of the capability to attack command and control nodes and work to destroy land-based threats, as well as advanced enemy sub or naval surface forces. If CSBA’s predictions become fact in the near-to-medium term, America and its allies will have a major problem to contend with.

The problems deepen when you consider even large issues like the deployment of America’s nuclear weapons. With Washington also needing to replace its aging Ohio Class SSBN submarines—armed with a good deal of America’s undersea nuclear deterrent—the problem set becomes even more dire.

How to Solve the Problem: Underwater Aircraft Carriers?

So what can Washington do to mitigate the problem? While presenting a number of solutions, one alluded to by CSBA’s Clark seems quite genius: essentially turning submarines into underwater aircraft carriers that would carry drone-like underwater unmanned vehicles or UUVs.
“Submarines will increasingly need to shift from being front-line tactical platforms like aircraft to being host and coordination platforms like aircraft carriers”
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. “Large UUVs and other deployed systems that are smaller and less detectable will increasingly be used instead of manned submarines for tactical missions such as coastal intelligence gathering, land attack, or anti-ship missions.”

One could imagine a scenario where UUVs move into A2/AD environments for surveillance missions, land attack or even hunting manned attack subs, allowing much more expensive and manned traditional submarines the ability to stay out of range. While there are obvious questions—feasibility, cost, if a new generation of “carrier” subs would need to be built or existing subs could be modified into such a platform—the idea seems certainly worth strong merit as a solution. A quick, informal polling I took of multiple security experts here in Washington felt that such an idea was very feasible with existing technology.

Parting Thoughts: Admitting You Have a Problem Is the First Step

As nations around the globe develop ever more advanced commercial capabilities, along with increasingly sophisticated technologies that easily diffuse across borders, traditional areas of U.S. military dominance will begin to degrade unless innovation continues—some would say they already have considerably. Over the last several years, America has come to terms with the challenge of A2/AD and developed various tools to counter such problem sets (think Air-Sea Battle/JAM-GC and now the Third Offset Strategy). Clearly, no military advantage is guaranteed forever. Just as Washington has innovated to find unique ways to maintain its battlefield edge, the challenge that will likely soon present itself in the underwater domain will also be met.

The first step in solving a problem is admitting you have one. For America and what seems like a very threatening challenge to its undersea dominance, we seem to have made that leap and are already working on possible solutions. You can’t really ask for any more than that.

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janjak desalin

Junior Member
Could Counter-Intervention, the supposed Chinese military strategy against which AirSea Battle (recently renamed, but whatever) is built around be imaginary?
I found this article to be an effective critique of simplistic analyses of Chinese military strategy. I have similar critiques of PLANs mythical " 2nd Island Chain"/blue-water navy strategic objective. Although my own strategic analysis does appropriate the A2 / AD concept (as any contemporary battle plan would), it is employed as one tactical component -as a screening tactic- within an overall strategy of accomplishing fundamental offensive objectives, if necessary, within the 1st Island chain (read Diaoyutai Islands, Okinawa, Taiwan, in that order), in the South China Sea, or on the continent (read Korea).
Basically, my reading is that the author is simply suggesting -and correctly, so- that we don't confuse/conflate a tactic with, or assign a tactic greater significance than, it's superordinate strategy.
 
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