Air Defence thread

kunmingren

Junior Member
i am not sure if there is already a thread discussing the capability of China's air defence, if there isnt already one out there, does anyone as a good idea about how good China is at protecting its air space against a advance airforce (ex USA).
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Against a regional airforce, I would say pretty good.

Against the US, not a chance.
 

kunmingren

Junior Member
Against a regional airforce, I would say pretty good.

Against the US, not a chance.

What exactly makes China weak against US airpower, is it because the SAM is inadequate or too few or both, or is it that the radars arent good enough or too few of them?
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I don't think the PLAAF, which also commands the large SAMs (the PLA only covers the small point defense SAMs), has the same kind of history, development, budget as the USAF, the summation of which is simply overwhelming in both numerical and technological superiority.

Even without bringing Raptors into this, the USAF for example, has far more F-16s than the PLAAF has J-7s! Like 3X more.

That "average" F-16, and I'm not referring to the most modern, still has better avionics and radar options (other than range) compared to most Flankers in the PLAAF.
 
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kunmingren

Junior Member
I don't think the PLAAF, which also commands the large SAMs (the PLA only covers the small point defense SAMs), has the same kind of history, development, budget as the USAF, the summation of which is simply overwhelming in both numerical and technological superiority.

Even without bringing Raptors into this, the USAF for example, has far more F-16s than the PLAAF has J-7s! Like 3X more.

That "average" F-16, and I'm not referring to the most modern, still has better avionics and radar options (other than range) compared to most Flankers in the PLAAF.

but i was thinking more about defending chinese airspace, thats assuming a foregin power attacks chinese cities or armed forces. What about the S-300 or HQ-9, arent those missile securing the chinese airspace even if the plaaf cant take on usaf.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
but i was thinking more about defending chinese airspace, thats assuming a foregin power attacks chinese cities or armed forces. What about the S-300 or HQ-9, arent those missile securing the chinese airspace even if the plaaf cant take on usaf.

Well there is the difference of shooting down aircraft and shooting down missiles fired from aircraft when defending a position. China's SAM systems are (from what we've seen in specs) respectably dangerous, but its anti-missile capability is noticeably weaker; so for example USAF stand-off missiles would have an easier time hitting their targets if not too far in land, which brings up the second issue. When talking about Chinese airspace the location must be factored in simply because the amount of defenses vary from location to location. If talking about vital areas (Beijing for example) then anti-air defenses would in all likelihood be very dense and unfriendly to aircraft.

Of course it depends on what your scenario is. If you are supposing that the USAF is flying and fighting the PLAAF with SAM support over Chinese soil, then the odds are tilted quite a bit towards the home team. If instead the USAF's mission would be say, destruction of a city, then it would not necessarily have to get inland enough to be vulnerable to SAMs; thus negating a big home team advantage. (Logistics aside)

In short, if talking about pure air to air combat the PLAAF stands a better chance simply because a possible scenario would be near China, providing it with various advantages (geography, number of airfields, SAM network, US logistic difficulty) that could possibly overcome technological differences. If however it's an attempt to protect cities and other targets from destruction, it's harder to be optimistic.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
but i was thinking more about defending chinese airspace, thats assuming a foregin power attacks chinese cities or armed forces. What about the S-300 or HQ-9, arent those missile securing the chinese airspace even if the plaaf cant take on usaf.

The answer is it depends on the capabilities of the attacker. Let me use the USA as proxy assuming that the "war" will stay conventional.

PLAAF probably has an integrated yet centralized air defence system based on the old Soviet model. Here, radar stations, Sam sites, airfields, and aircraft are under direct control of controllers that provide, early warning, detection, IFF, and intercept data. These assets operate on an overlapping enveloped with multiple assets capable of defending single area. Attempts to decentralized such system (USAF model) is still in the embroyonic phase with Chinese AWACS still in early stages of induction of the PLAAF. (read not yet 100% effective).

To destroy such network, the USA typically uses the "old" standard of stealth and cruise missiles coupled with massive electronic attack. Right now, the US has probable map the whole Chinese territory and knows the location of radar sites, sam sites, airfields, and most importantly communications nodes, relay system, and power grids.

In a time of its choosing, B-2 stealth bomber will sneak into radar gaps to bomb communications nodes and telephone relay system in order to decapitate the centralized air defence system. Simultaneously, TLAM and CALCM strikes will target the power grid and known radar and sam sites and PLAAF airfields. This is then followed by a massive air armada whose mission are to: conduct offensive counter air (shoot down flying aircraft), Sam suppression, and attack of air fields, fuel dumps, etc that are designed to lower the sortie rates of the PLAAF.

The tricky concept to understand is this. Attacks on communications nodes, power grids, and electronic jamming of both wireless communications and radar will hinder the PLAAF general (in charge of airdefence) from doing his job. His attempts to orchestrate a credible defence through coordination and asset movements, etc will be hampered if he can't communicate with his troops and if he can't see what going on in the air. Furthermore, US network centric warfare means that every single aircraft in the US knows what is going on in real time, which precipated a rapid pace of combat. The Chinese general will issue orders based on situations that are already overtaken by events. An order to counter movement A is useless if the enemy is already moving at M.

The result will be individual squadrons or sam site that are fighting independently in an uncoordinated manner. These guys will be fighting blind with little knowledge of what is going on to the airspace next to there own. They will be locally outnumbered and destroyed in detail.

A military force always fights as a team. The US first strike will be to destroy the PLAAF cohesion that it ceases to fight as a team. Each unit fighting individually without support against the US force that still functions as a team will always lose.
 
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Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
While I don't know what the concrete chinese system is like I must say that what Idont described vas valid for soviet union back at the very end of the cold war. While cerainly possible that some or most countries today, which may or may not include russsia and/or china, still have such a system, one has to keep in mind that it's been more than 15 years since then and if nothing else, if doctrine remained the same (dunno for russia but for china it certainly seems biggest change in its military has been exactly the doctrine), proliferation of fixed line networks (speed of new layed fiber optic lines in china alone is staggering) and multiple redundant nodes as well as ever greater reliance on wireless crypted data transfer may not make the scenario Idont describes so easy to pull off.

In the end, air defense is the last resort measure anyway. It is there not to protect itself - its radars, but to protect fixed strategic targets like industrial points, military bases, etc. If AD network can't track the incoming enemy, it all becomes a moot point.

While I don't believe US can rely on technological edge alone to bring chinese AD network to its knees, if we're talking about a prolonged air attack campaign at US's leisure, sheer numbers and sheer brute force available to US over a long period would be enough to crush any AD network in the world.
 
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