Aerodynamics thread

vesicles

Colonel
Once again, I suggest that we should be careful when interpreting the photo posted on the last page. We don’t want to be the ones who started spreading wrong info.

In the photo, a tv series named “One Minute” claims that the J-20 can combat cruise for 52 km. That’s it.

It does NOT mean “the J-20 can cover 52 km in one minute”. It does not.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Okay...but "The J-20 can combat cruise for 52 km" seems like a *very* odd statement just by itself.

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Please take a look at their official website and see how their show interface is usually formatted.

Again, the phrase “One Minute” is completely separate from whatever other message says.

I have no idea what the part on the J-20 covering 52 km means either. That’s why I specifically asked about that in my first post...
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think the most likely meaning is the simplest one, J-20 supercruised for a total of about 52km. So two to three minutes or so depending on how supersonic one would imagine it went. The show's segment is called "one minute" like a summary or brief news flash. Cruise should be interpreted as supercruise otherwise it's used pretty redundantly. So put it together, J-20 supercruised for 52km. If we assume supercruise as absolute minimal to qualify ie mach 1 which is roughly 0.343 km/s this translates to total time in (minimal) supercruise as 52/0.343 = 151.6 seconds ~ 2.5 mins... assuming lowest possible speed to qualify as supercruise.

Of course if it cruised at a slightly higher speed, it would have only done it for about 2 mins which may have just been a snippet to suggest that J-20 can supercruise for at least about 2 mins at some supersonic speed with current less than ideal engines. What the fuel capacity and loading was we don't know, along with whether or not this is even true. I think it's fair to say everyone expects the J-20 to be able to supercruise even with current WS-10x / Al-31x engines due to aerodynamic shaping, internal bays, manufacturing weight reductions etc.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Limited supercruise for the current J-20 isn't too surprising, I think the Eurofighter and Rafale can also do the same, with a nominal weapons load.

Come to think of it, the F-35 can do some supercruise under certain unspecified conditions.
 

Inst

Captain
Strongly disagree on Mach 1 as a minimum. If you look at drag diagrams, drag actually decreases as aircraft go from Mach 1 to Mach 1.3. (see
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) Assuming that the J-20 supercruised for 2 minutes, the speed comes out to Mach 1.25. Using this table
(
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), we note that the speed of sound actually decreases with altitude, and using a 2 minute burst, we can assume the J-20 was able to sustain supercruise at Mach 1.3 at 10000 feet.

In the case of the F-22, it is rumored to achieve best supercruise performance at 35,000 feet (10,000 meters), so if we assume the same for the J-20, it is possible that the J-20 could have reached Mach 1.46 supercruise assuming only a 2 second burst.

Of course, without specifics the supercruise claim isn't that useful. At what altitude did it occur? At what speed did it occur?
 

Inst

Captain
Don't mechanically put Sun Zi's words in reality. Sun Zi has never asked his student to do exactly word for word. He has also said "故其战胜不复,而应形于无穷", it means no victorious act can be repeated exactly, it always have to be adopted to the ground. Otherwise, you know the infamous armchair general Zhao Kuo who not only got himself killed but also 400,000 soldiers with him.

A good example is Marshal Liu Bocheng's 129 division did two ambushes at the same place to the Japanese troops under the same commander. Marshal Liu's act was apparently against the "right" way in the text book. But it is the real right way.

Let's play a mind game. You argue for "one must pretend strong when weak". Since I also read Sun Zi's book, I know that you are pretending strong while being weak, so I call your bluff, what will you do?

Now turn us around. I am weak and I act weak (not following your suggestion), and since you follow the texts of "Sun Zi", will you interpret my "act weak" as "I am actually strong"? You must because you follow the texts, right? So my "act weak" must be the true spirit of Sun Zi's teaching even I act against "his" texts???

The Japanese word for it is Yomi. I am feigning x to deceive you. But then you assume I am feigning x, whereas I am trying to convince you I am feigning x, so perhaps I am feigning feigning x. Using infinite series, we eventually achieve at a convergence, wherein you don't know exactly what I am doing, but I have injected uncertainty into your calculations, with a slight bias towards falling for feigning x.

Take it another way; the Americans during the Cold War understated their weapons systems performance; the Hellfire had a range of about 8km, instead of 4km. On a technological and economic basis, the Americans led the way for much of the Cold War. The Soviets, on the other hand, often overstated their system performance, because they started with a weaker economy and technological base.

The lack of highly-maneuverable J-20 videos is a mystery that implies that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. The actual pros in the CIA and in American military intelligence can very well build a J-20 model, using some assumptions and open-source information, such as the purported 16,000 empty weight, and come to their own conclusions.
 
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