About PLA's dual-leadership system

fishhead

Banned Idiot
This is the key. Its pointless to argue wheter the dual-leadership system is different in China or Romania when the fundamental structure of the system is what determines its weaknesses.

The case of 38th demos that a commissar doesn't interfere troop commander's combat decision, as long as it's not a treason. So PLA is as efficient as any modern western troop in a combat situation.

It's the key point that PLA system is totally different from Russian one, which all East European army followed.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
why Im gettin feeling that Im banging my head against the wall.....bang!....bang!...:(

The issue is not about the intervening into combat decissions, but the shared power of everyday leading and managing of the unit. Not to mention the inflexibility that always follows when there is a sentry or watch-dog of some sort of following your every foodsteps. You can claim that only in the case of treason the commisar would interven, but what is a treason? A word used since dawn of civilication to justify the ruling powers rigth to eliminate those who are against it.
Who makes the call, what is treason, the commander or the commisar. Answer to this.
 

fishhead

Banned Idiot
The issue is not about the intervening into combat decissions, but the shared power of everyday leading and managing of the unit.
............
Who makes the call, what is treason, the commander or the commisar. Answer to this.

It's not about "shared power", they don't share but have different responsibilities. Also they're same level so they can report to higher level if some incident happens thus it prevents one signle person from abusing power, like bully the soldiers.

What is "treason"? Disobeying the order.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
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Registered Member
The fact that there is someone to "report" of mauluse of power is the key of this system. There is then always a change and possipility that the system is used to hamper the other leaders work. In single user system, the realities and outside world determens wich decission was wrong as well as common survival instinct.

The responsibility is just a reflection of the "rigths" that any leader and commander has. And those rigths are the ones that builds the authority in the front of the troops. Also the sharing of responsibilities are the ones that really needs to be under one decicion making, otherwise it creates inflexibility wich makes such system stiff and unadaptable.
 

fishhead

Banned Idiot
The fact that there is someone to "report" of mauluse of power is the key of this system. There is then always a change and possipility that the system is used to hamper the other leaders work.

LOL, that's pretty good for Chinese, most of them like this kind of "hamper". We can end this debate now.

PLA is the troop that has least soldier bullying in the world(I almost never heard of it), and also follow the order absolutely. In June 4th event, 7000 soldiers were wounded by civilian beatings with sticks and stones, but not a single shot was fired before the order was issued. And when they were given the order, they fired without hesitation. 38th was among those acting most brutely, even their commander was removed. Not a single unit rebeled during the action.

This is the troop that most of its soldiers serve only 3 year term, and they showed they are among the troops with highest professionism in the world.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
An example of police work done by military unit is a good indication of military units leadership flexibility:confused: Are we even the same planet you and I anymore???
You just drift deeper into inrelevance with those out of contest claims...

PLA is the troop that has least soldier bullying in the world(I almost never heard of it)

What do you mean by this, Pennalism of fellow soldiers or officer bullying?
...and you think that becouse dictatorship countrys army that doesent even report its latest domestic weapon acustions doesent report of such things, it doesent exist??
:nana:
A little word of soldier bullying, In our army, that is in reality, one of the best of the world of not having it, actually suffers from it. Bullying, expecially incorporated into military dicipline actually works well in the system, becouse the system itself actually needs it. If used properly (eq. equally to all men) its the bulk of creating the unit spirit, and best possiple engourament method to make the unit achieve even better in the drill field as the military living doesent really offer a change to use better "carrot"
 

Vlad Plasmius

Junior Member
I didn't fully understand what the dual-leadership system was before, but now hearing it I still don't get how this can interfere.

It actually sounds like just formalizing the "friendly" lieutenant. I'm not sure how it actually works in the PLA, but it sounds like what I hear about a lot of second-in-commands in the military. This person is basically making sure morale is high, loyalty is strong, and everyone is taken care of, rather than running military decisions.

That actually sounds like the role a second-in-command often takes in Western militaries. Possibly in war he's be the intermediary between troops and their commanding officer. The commissar being the one who people feel they can go to with complaints for his personable behavior if they have problems with the commanding officer. On the other hand the commanding officer is the one that commands respect due to a tough or straight-to-business attitude.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right, but that seems to be what is being talk about here. Honestly, disputes in command happen regardless of what system is being used. It seems in China what a commissar does is really just giving him the job a second-in-command often fulfills despite it not technically being his job.

If such a system is used in the PLAAF and PLA, but only problems are experienced in the PLAN, then it's probably a different problem than the actual system.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
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Registered Member
Disputes in command happens all the time. But in PLA, the disputes can really paralyze large units becouse it can take place by two equal leaders. In west the disputes cannot stall the commanders decission in the minute pasis, it can cost him his rank and freedom afterwards, but it cannot stall the units operationality.

But The commisar takes lot of the work that in western is traditionally been under the seccond-in-command, or under what we called, unit officer...or sort of Quarter master.
So in that sense the system is pretty close to what army unit command hierarchy should be. The proplems roses from the fact that Commisar doesent just manage these things, but leads the unit in this field. He has the final word in these subjects and despite their sound like unimportant rear area issues, the work load of the Commisar actually covers the most crucial features that comes to units fighting capacity. In the wilderness, (aka combat enverioment) these things are still managed by the commisar, and expecially in the wild, they should really be under the unit commanders juristiction so that he can properly lead his unit be aware of its internal situation and have tools to improve it. Military unit leadership isent just knowing the rigth tactics and strategies, its about managing punch of soldiers. In PRC this is divided so that the soldier leads only the military side and political party watch dog leads all other aspects.
That relationship between the commisar and unit military leader consist from the start a really bad drift and friction and the main consern of the entire system is its inflexibility. In west, when unit commander has an innovative idea, its up to his own mind and persona, wheter the unit conducts his idea, but in PLA it needs to have both Commisar and unit leader having to agree that wheter that idea is good or not.

And innovativeness, innovativeness or lack of it is propaply one of the most important single thing that determens succes in military operations. In Spanish Civil war and In 1939 Finnish-russian war, the main reason for communist forces failure was that the military units, companies up to divisions lacked the flexiility to adapt into situations that werent anticipated by the doctrines and "scientifical war fare". This along with the units lack of innovativenes to exploid sudden favorable situation lead into cathastrophic consequences. This inflexibility wasent coused just from the commisar system, but the commisars, wheter they intervented into the decission making or not were big factor in it.

What many of you tryes to ignore is the political guard function of the commisars and that systems main effect to any unit is that the leader has to be obeyable to the agreeded doctrines and strategies becouse any sort of private venturism can be seen by the commisars as "treason" like Fishead it so arubtly stated.
In todays PLA there still remains strict doctrines and this inflexible chain of command to assure that the doctrines are followed by the book. We can all lead conclusions of how such army can manage in the modern battle field where situation awareness is even more crucial and decive commands are to be given in the blink of an eye, not after party comitee meating has agreeded that such action would be Ok to do.

Military leadership comes in rootlevel down to individual skills, democracy and split responsibility neglects this factor and takes the focus out of it.
 
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fishhead

Banned Idiot
That actually sounds like the role a second-in-command often takes in Western militaries. Possibly in war he's be the intermediary between troops and their commanding officer. The commissar being the one who people feel they can go to with complaints for his personable behavior if they have problems with the commanding officer. On the other hand the commanding officer is the one that commands respect due to a tough or straight-to-business attitude.

He is like a priest in western army but with real power, on non-combat issues he has more power than commander actually.
 
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