2023: the Third Sino-Japanese War

leibowitz

Junior Member
t_co, your fiction story is becoming quite interesting. Do you intend to write a "fiction" book about impending hostilities?

Yep. It'll actually be one book, but with three intersecting storylines--one set in 2023, another set in 2011, and a third set in 2002.

Well here is a factual report by AFP, Reuters (6 Jan 2013) - Headlined: Isles row: Tokyo 'set to raise defence spending'. "Media says PM Abe likely to boost spending as Japan scrambles jets over Chinese planes."

So, to contine with your fiction story .... your last sentence could also become a reality!!!

I sincerely, sincerely hope what I write will never become reality. Hint: this story does not end well for anyone.
 

advill

Junior Member
Your impending book is a clever undertaking. Anyway, your "hope" could just be wishful thinking. My take is that within 10 years (2023), IF there are NO level headed Leaders in the countries concerned, whose ony focus are on Greed, Pride & Self-interest, there would be hostilities in the region during the coming decade. Your hint on the ending is a foregone conclusion - No one wins in the Conflict. Only "Hawks" would try to justify their disastrous actions. Sheer stupidity Indeed!!




Yep. It'll actually be one book, but with three intersecting storylines--one set in 2023, another set in 2011, and a third set in 2002.



I sincerely, sincerely hope what I write will never become reality. Hint: this story does not end well for anyone.
 

advill

Junior Member
Tend to agree. The hypothesis is China would most likely focus on Maritime warfare (use of warships, submarines, "Hubei" Fast Missile Boats), and Long Range Missile launches by the PLA 2nd Artillery. BUT as I have remarked earlier, and recent reactions by Japan, the Japanese Navy/Military would be a strong force to contend with, even without massive assistance from the US. One has to understand the Samurai Bushido's Code to know their National & Martial-like Historical background. The Question is: Are both willing to be embroiled in conflicts when they are rich & progressive countries, with good Economic Future? Their internal politics, nationalistic feelings including "Saving Face" could also provide an answer.





Manned dog fights, as described in your story, might never come to pass:

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leibowitz

Junior Member
Tend to agree. The hypothesis is China would most likely focus on Maritime warfare (use of warships, submarines, "Hubei" Fast Missile Boats), and Long Range Missile launches by the PLA 2nd Artillery. BUT as I have remarked earlier, and recent reactions by Japan, the Japanese Navy/Military would be a strong force to contend with, even without massive assistance from the US. One has to understand the Samurai Bushido's Code to know their National & Martial-like Historical background. The Question is: Are both willing to be embroiled in conflicts when they are rich & progressive countries, with good Economic Future? Their internal politics, nationalistic feelings including "Saving Face" could also provide an answer.

All that hinges on whether Shinzo Abe can thread the needle of the Japanese debt bubble. If he does decide to embark on a path of military keynesianism, as some (Ishihara) have suggested he do, he would have to watch out for inflationary pressure on the yen bankrupting the BoJ. If he doesn't, Japan will continue its current anemia.
 

advill

Junior Member
So unwise to PUSH Japan to hostilities. Even with debts, inflation etc., don't tell me the Japanese Military will be weakened? As a correlation with the US, with all its debt & inflation & financial problems, the US Military is still strong at least for the next say 5-10 years? Beyond 2023 we do not know - that's what China is anticipating and is closely looking at I am sure.



All that hinges on whether Shinzo Abe can thread the needle of the Japanese debt bubble. If he does decide to embark on a path of military keynesianism, as some (Ishihara) have suggested he do, he would have to watch out for inflationary pressure on the yen bankrupting the BoJ. If he doesn't, Japan will continue its current anemia.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I simply don't think the hawks will get anywhere in Japan. China is not Iraq or Afghanistan. The USA was able to invade those countries because they massively overpowered both, yet the two wars still took a massive toll on the US economy. IMO, those wars are directly responsible for the rapid ascension of China in the first decade of the 21st century.

So it doesn't matter how hawkish Japan gets, they will never do anything without US assent.

Furthermore, time and again people get fooled by Japan's large on-paper economy. They forget the fact that Japan is an island nation with virtually no resources and poor domestic manufacturing capabilities. Compare the relief response of the Fukushima disaster and the Sichuan Earthquake. Where China was able to get aid to the disaster zone within 24 hours, through treacherous mountain roads no less, Japan was unable to organize an effective relief effort for *MONTHS*, despite a far more advanced transportation network.

So people who think Japan can mobilize overnight for war is just fantasizing.
 

leibowitz

Junior Member
A thousand kilometers to north of Nanjing, in a windowless conference room, the Central Military Commission of the Communist Party of China gathered. The room was arranged as usual for their meeting. Name cards arranged in a never-changing order sat with parade-ground precision down each side of a long, dark, oval of mahogany. A pad of paper and two sharpened pencils sat ready for each committee member, although the pads were never used.

At the head of the room, on a large screen, the wizened face of General Fan, head of the Nanjing Military Region, loomed over sets of tea prepared for Admiral Sun Jianguo, Exective Vice Chairman and day-to-day boss of the CMC, and Army General Yuan Kun, the Chief of Staff.

Other senior officers and officials filed into the room, dropping their own notepads at the usual places along the sides of the wide table. The room felt crowded, though it was actually less full than usual. It had been cleared of the aides and staff officers who normally sat against the side walls, ready to provide their bosses with the details of any issue.

General Fan was not the only one who wondered why they were not at the table with the generals and Party officials.

He recognized why the room was crowded, though. Even through his webcam, the tension was so thick, he could almost cut it with a knife. The VIPs gathered in small clumps, immersed in separate conversations, but the tone of chatter was far from banal.

In the last twenty minutes, General Fan had hurriedly conferred with the Chief of Staff, General Yuan Kun. The Chief of Staff was the senior operations officer in the Chinese military. Together, they went over the details and discussed likely questions and answers on operational matters that he and Yuan would address at the 1000 meeting.

Over the past five years, General Fan had learned that General Yuan liked to look as though he were in control and could handle every question brought up by his boss, the Executive Vice Chairman, or any of the dozen or so officers and Party officials gathered around the large conference table. But Fan also knew that Yuan expected him to jump in quickly if Yuan's sometimes shaky grasp of relevant details threatened to become apparent. As had become glaringly obvious over the years, when General Yuan dumped a problem into a Military Region commander's lap, he left it there.

Far better to prep the kindly gentleman so he could blather his way past any uncertainty and then clean up problems later, Fan thought. He pawed at his tablet again, checking his slides and the corrected version of Colonel Wu's briefing notes. As he glanced up, Executive Vice Chairman Sun Yan marched through the door with the Chief of Staff, and unexpectedly, the General Secretary himself. Admiral Sun motioned the General Secretary to take his own chair while a staff officer hurriedly brought another ot the head of the table for the Vice Chairman as the attendees took their places.

The Executive Vice Chairman sat down, looked at the Chief of Staff, and commanded immediately, "Let's hear it." His sharp tone brought all eyes to General Yuan he stepped up to the podium.

"General Secretary, Vice Chairman, esteemed comrades, I'll begin with a video clip we recorded ten minutes ago. Then I'll provide a brief situation report on this morning's incidents. General Fan will provide greater detail on the operational background, and then the Executive Vice Chairman will give us his thoughts on future operations." He looked down at his script while his staffer swapped General Fan's face for the video of Ishii Shinobu.

"This clip," Yuan continued, "was recorded at 0920 hours from the Japan Broadcasting Corporation, NHK."

The Chief of Staff nodded at his staffer and Ishii Shinobu's smile appeared, stretched a half-meter wide. Subtitles scrolled below it.

"As some of you may know, my son, Ishii Akira, joined the JASDF to serve his Emperor and people last year. Recently, he has been defending our sovereign islands against the unrestrained aggression of our western neighbor. Some time ago, I was notified that he--my son, my firstborn--was shot down by forces of that... that country which you are all too aware of, and of which I shall not name.

For far too long, we have suffered under the aggression of our revanchist enemies and, I daresay, the occasional negligence of our friends. I wish to let you know that if I am elected to lead our people in these next tumultuous years, I will draw the line. No more. I will not apologize for Japan. Never. And should any of those neighbors use our common history to justify their aggression, I will stop at nothing to teach them a lesson, a lesson to respect the absolute safety of the Japanese people, and the absolute integrity of our territory. I give you my word as a loyal subject of our Emperor, and father to a true hero."

The tape ended abruptly and General Fan's face reappeared. While Yuan returned to his notes, the commission sat silent, except for the Chairman, who shifted in his chair, reached for a pencil, and began to calmly take paper notes.

The Chief of Staff resumed his presentation. "This morning, two of our fighters were engaged with their Japanese counterparts in a demonstration of sovereignty over the disputed islands. One of the Japanese fighters suffered an accident and crashed, which the other Japanese fighter interpreted as due to hostile action. The other Japanese pilot fired upon and destroyed one of our fighters, and was in turn engaged and destroyed by our second pilot, Captain Kang Zongqi of the Ox Squadron, 771st Regiment, 3rd Fighter Division." On cue, a map of the islands with red and white crosses appeared beside General Fan's looming face. "Immediately after the engagement, the Japanese and Americans scrambled eight fighter planes to interdict Captain Kang. After contacting home base, he was notified of the situation and ordered to eject."

"At this time, our satellites have spotted two Japanese destroyers operating in the vicinity, and the US 7th Fleet is making emergency preparations to sally forth from Yokosuka Naval Base. Stealth bomber assets at Andersen Air Force Base also appear to be going on high alert."

"In addition to the American and Japanese response, there are three further factors that complicate the situation." Yuan paused for a drink of water. "First, as the video hints at, one of the Japanese pilots--we are not sure which--was the son of Ishii Shinobu, the far-right leader of the Japan Restoration Party, and the likely Prime Minister following the Japanese elections in the next few months. Captain Kang did not report any parachutes from the three other downed airplanes, which means his son is likely dead. This will likely make future diplomacy with Japan extremely difficult."

"Second, there is no hard evidence to corroborate with Captain Kang's version of events, since all aircraft ditched in disputed waters. This means that the Japanese or Americans may be able to spin an alternate version of events as the truth, at least until we recover a black box or flight recorder."

"Third, Captain Kang is still floating in disputed waters. We can communicate him, but his food and water supplies will only last him for another two and a half days, and we might, for the same reason as the second issue, have problems trying to rescue him."

"General Secretary, Vice Chairman," Yuan continued, "we have put our sea- and land-based air-defense networks on alert, scrambled interceptors and AWACS to patrol over international waters in the East China Sea, and tasked a team from the Nanjing MR to draft up a non-escalatory rescue plan for Captain Kang. We've also sent our version of events to our attaches in Tokyo and Washington, and tasked them with getting a pulse on the reactions of the Japanese and American national security establishments. These responses have been limited to defensive preparations only, so as not to unduly alarm the Americans--we are treating the incident as a regrettable multiple mid-air collision, and downplaying the shoot-down angle." Yuan put down his notes, a signal for questions.

The General Secretary sat up. "Admiral Sun, General Yuan, that message can't hold given Ishii's remarks. The Politburo will have to make a public statement confirming briefly what we know and what we're doing about it. And we'll have to make that statement today."

"I agree, General Secretary. With your blessing, I'll task a member of the CMC staff to work with your team on that."

General Fan chimed in. "The folks working on the rescue plan already include a press officer, so they'd be a nice addition to whatever roster you're putting in place to handle the PR angle."

The General Secretary nodded. "Good idea. General Fan, get them on board as well." Then he paused, glanced down at his tablet, and looked back up. "Okay, here are our priorities: first, we need to avoid escalating this incident any further. Everyone here has done an admirable job of keeping this low-key, let's keep up the good work. Second, we need to rescue Captain Kang--both for his sake and for our country's sake. If the Japanese pluck him out of the water or off the island, it would make the rest of the world into think they own the islands. General Yuan, I assume you know what to do?"

The Vice Chairman nodded.

"Good. On the civil side, we need to get our message out in front of the world with whatever evidence we have--long-range radar records, anything. And--someone needs to figure out what this means for Sino-Japanese relations over the next year. I'm not convinced this is going to completely wreck things, at least not yet. Vice-Premier Zhang Shenghan will be in charge of the civil side." He turned to face the room. "All of you might remember him as the bright kid who cleaned up the mess at Shenyang twelve years ago."

Then he pushed back his chair and stood up. "Thank you, Admiral Sun, General Yuan, General Fan, and the rest of you as well. Admiral Sun, after you meet with the CMC staff, meet me at Zhongnanhai with whoever you've tasked this to. I'll let you know the exact time."
 
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advill

Junior Member
Whether the Japanese "Hawks" will get anywhere have yet to be seen. Yes, I agree IF there is a sudden & sneaky attack against Japan, it would be difficult now for the country to mobilise overnight, BUT under the Japanese-US Defense Treaty the would-be attackers would have to contend with a much greater retaliatory combined force. It would be very short-sighted to give the examples of how "disasters" including Earthquakes are dealt with as reported by Japan & China. News in the media is open in Japan, compared to China which is highly selective, and some attempts of cover-ups had taken place (e.g. the Railway disaster in recent past). Anyway, some would be glad that the "Arms Race" begins to escalate in Asia as countries become belligerant. Lesson to learn: Nations who are the aggressors & tried to bully, coerce or bribe others have FAILED. WW II was a good example. Ahhh! but some political and military leaders have shelved and thrown past history into their "dustbins", as their country believes in the dictum "Rich Country, Strong Military" & the Nation can show-off their Military power indiscriminatly. Sadly, humans can never learn - God protect our future generations from disasters.




I simply don't think the hawks will get anywhere in Japan. China is not Iraq or Afghanistan. The USA was able to invade those countries because they massively overpowered both, yet the two wars still took a massive toll on the US economy. IMO, those wars are directly responsible for the rapid ascension of China in the first decade of the 21st century.

So it doesn't matter how hawkish Japan gets, they will never do anything without US assent.

Furthermore, time and again people get fooled by Japan's large on-paper economy. They forget the fact that Japan is an island nation with virtually no resources and poor domestic manufacturing capabilities. Compare the relief response of the Fukushima disaster and the Sichuan Earthquake. Where China was able to get aid to the disaster zone within 24 hours, through treacherous mountain roads no less, Japan was unable to organize an effective relief effort for *MONTHS*, despite a far more advanced transportation network.

So people who think Japan can mobilize overnight for war is just fantasizing.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I have only read the first couple segments so far, interesting fiction and well written. But a lot of the details are bugging me.

Firstly, no pilot worth his wings would ever forget to leave himself enough fuel to get home plus a healthy margin for emergencies. Even if he was near 'bingo fuel' at the start of the incident, there was no way such a brief dogfight could possibly exhaust his fuel reserves to the point where he would only have a few minutes worth of fuel left at the end of it.

Secondly, there was no way the JSDAF or USAF could possibly have scrambled fighters fast enough for them to be only a few minutes away after the shoot down. Realistically, it would have been a minor miracle for anyone to have even managed to get fighters off the ground so soon after an unexpected incident.

Thirdly, there is simply no way any commander anywhere would ever order his pilot to ditch a perfectly good airplane for fear of him being shot down. It would have been incalculably better to have the fighter and pilot in your possession, where you can use the audio logs, mission computer logs, gun camera footage etc to support your version of events and have your pilot present his version of events to a friendly press than having no proof to support your story, have your man in hostile hands where he might be coerced into changing his story and potentially have a hostile power get their hands on a near pristine example of one of your top end fighter jets after they had fished it out of the drink.

The time scale also does not work. In order for the pilot to have delivered a proper verbal debriefing over the radio would have taken at the very least 15 minutes for a the most basic outline of what happened when you take into account the inevitable demands for clarification from the base operators, the highly excited state of the pilot etc. It would not have been unusual for debriefings to take days or weeks before investigators are satisfied they have a good accounting of what happened in realistic terms. Even if the pilot managed to get his story across in 5 minutes, he would still have been well outside of disputed waters.

The amount of information that was gathered was also too good to be true. For one thing, there is no way a tip from a 'friendly fishing boat' would ever be patched directly into command level tactical briefings without at least some confirmation from military sources first. At best such a tip would only make some lowly analyst divert UAVs or OTH radars or other assess to check out the claim, and even that is being very generous. In all likelihood, the fishing boat won't have a clue who to call with such a tip, and even if they did get a message out (perhaps using the texting function of the Chinese BeiDou GPS network), it would take a lot longer for anyone in any position to act upon that information to be notified of it. The only way information could be so quickly and directly fed into the PLA tactical network would be if it was a PLAN asset that spotted the F22s taking off.

The key to good fiction is to make it believable, and the key to making fiction believable is to see if you can poke holes in your narrative.
 
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