09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[SEAD]

The realistic ability to hunt opfor SSBNs is not only dependent on the capability of one's own SSNs, but rather global naval (and air) basing that you have access to and the global naval (and air) basing that the opfor has access to.

So sure, if the 09V is a modernized Chinese version of Seawolf, in theory it could be used to hunt all manner of opfor high performance nuclear submarines.
But in practice, it is dependent on Chinese naval (and air) basing availability and US naval (and air basing) availability around the world.... so no, barring major tectonic upheavals in geopolitical alignment and basing, that is not going to be a likely realistic mission for 09Vs, even assuming they are a large diameter high performance SSN like a modern Seawolf.

095 may service for a long time, of course they need to get Taiwan and some other pacific bases firstly. But do you think it’s technically possible?

As for your question about hull diameter "fixing" a tech gap -- what tphuang was implying was that with more advanced technology, you can achieve greater levels of noise reduction in the same volume/hull diameter.
If your technology is less advanced, you will need greater volume/hull diameter to achieve the same level of noise reduction versus a submarine using more advanced technology.

I mean, is it possible that for hulls over a certain size, further enlarging is meaningless because the space had been enough?

 

[Blitzo]

095 may service for a long time, of course they need to get Taiwan and some other pacific bases firstly. But do you think it’s technically possible?

I think given where USN SSBNs are known to patrol (i.e.: pacific and atlantic), that the PLAN would need a very very large number of high performance SSNs as well as a substantial number of naval-air stations in both the pacific and the atlantic for that to be a realistic mission.

"Technically possible" in theory.
But in practice, very very very unlikely in medium to long term future.

Better to not dream about this.

I mean, is it possible that for hulls over a certain size, further enlarging is meaningless because the space had been enough?

That's not a question that anyone here can answer.

 

[A.Man]

Yes, it's a very tiny number of people that still think so, yet they're disportionately more influential ...

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[SEAD]

I think given where USN SSBNs are known to patrol (i.e.: pacific and atlantic), that the PLAN would need a very very large number of high performance SSNs as well as a substantial number of naval-air stations in both the pacific and the atlantic for that to be a realistic mission.

For Atlantic they have had Cuba and some other candidates(e.g. Equatorial Guinea in rumors). the most obvious obstacle is always island chains and once they are surmounted, PLAN may take much less time than expectations to begin such operations.

 

[Blitzo]

For Atlantic they have had Cuba and some other candidates, the most obvious obstacle is always island chains and once they are surmounted, they may take much less time than expectations to begin such operations.

Realistic credible PLAN SSNs hunting USN SSBNs is likely not going to happen this side of 2050.

There are so many more important and bigger technological and military advancements and procurements and geopolitical changes and strategies that would have to be carried out first, that it's not really worthwhile thinking about this.

 

[SEAD]

Realistic credible PLAN SSNs hunting USN SSBNs is likely not going to happen this side of 2050.

There are so many more important and bigger technological and military advancements and procurements and geopolitical changes and strategies that would have to be carried out first, that it's not really worthwhile thinking about this.

The geopolitical change would be dramatical once Taiwan is occupied. PLAN can begin to build bases as well as training to hunt US SSBNs even without enough SSNs, at least I can hardly find any reasons why they wouldn’t do that.

 

[Blitzo]

The geopolitical change would be dramatical once Taiwan is occupied. PLAN can begin to build bases as well as training to hunt US SSBNs even without enough SSNs, at least I can hardly find any reasons why they wouldn’t do that.

Hypothetically taking Taiwan does not mean that the PLAN would suddenly be able to credibly start hunting USN SSBNs that operate around the globe.
I think you are severely underestimating the challenge of operating at global distances (in both the pacific and the atlantic), not only in terms of the number of SSNs needed, but also in terms of global naval basing and air supports that would be needed, not to mention the extent of US and US allied global basing (not only in the western pacific, but in the overall pacific and the atlantic) that they would have at their disposal to in turn hunt Chinese SSNs.
The extent of that basing availability is a matter of very long term grand strategy.


If the PLAN has 100+ SSNs and if they have a dozen large air-naval bases scattered around latin america, africa (both the pacific and atlantic sides), and if they've significantly rolled back the US presence in the western pacific, and if they've managed to retake Taiwan and to somewhat finlandize Japan and South Korea -- then realistically hunting USN SSBNs might be able to be done in the way you describe.
Because what you're suggesting is the way in which the US hunted USSR SSBNs during the cold war -- and that was only possible due to the extent of US geopolitical containment (including requisite extensive basing and allies) of the USSR on both the atlantic and pacific sides. China would somehow be able to do at least a fraction of that to the US on its own peripheries.


My personal advice for you on this matter, is to not fantasize about it.
So many other things would have to happen first, that it is not worth pondering at the moment.


This will be my final post on the matter in this thread.

 

[SEAD]

Hypothetically taking Taiwan does not mean that the PLAN would suddenly be able to credibly start hunting USN SSBNs that operate around the globe.
I think you are severely underestimating the challenge of operating at global distances (in both the pacific and the atlantic), not only in terms of the number of SSNs needed, but also in terms of global naval basing and air supports that would be needed, not to mention the extent of US and US allied global basing (not only in the western pacific, but in the overall pacific and the atlantic) that they would have at their disposal to in turn hunt Chinese SSNs.
The extent of that basing availability is a matter of very long term grand strategy.


If the PLAN has 100+ SSNs and if they have a dozen large air-naval bases scattered around latin america, africa (both the pacific and atlantic sides), and if they've significantly rolled back the US presence in the western pacific, and if they've managed to retake Taiwan and to somewhat finlandize Japan and South Korea -- then realistically hunting USN SSBNs might be able to be done in the way you describe.
Because what you're suggesting is the way in which the US hunted USSR SSBNs during the cold war -- and that was only possible due to the extent of US geopolitical containment (including requisite extensive basing and allies) of the USSR on both the atlantic and pacific sides. China would somehow be able to do at least a fraction of that to the US on its own peripheries.


My personal advice for you on this matter, is to not fantasize about it.
So many other things would have to happen first, that it is not worth pondering at the moment.


This will be my final post on the matter in this thread.

You definitely underestimated the meaning of Taiwan. At least Japan will immediately be unreliable for US once Taiwan is occupied by China, after all ‘great east Asia co-prosperity’ is so attractive historically.

You can imagine how other countries will think about US once Taiwan is occupied, especially if US decides to intervene but defeated. In general Americans extremely overestimate the attraction of their lifestyle and ideology but indeed most countries want to be friends of US only because of actual benefits. Even Europe would want to be more independent and neural in US-China competition.

This is also the final post for me and time will tell us who’s right.

 

[Jason_]

We've had several discussions before regarding this topic. I thought it's pretty apparent we had different opinions on where China is in terms of submarine stealth technology.

Now, if they are further ahead than I think they are, I still think it's beneficial to build something close to seawolf class in pressure hull diameter since that could possibly offer them an advantage over Virginia class.

If you look at submarine stealth technologies that are not currently present on Chinese submarines, there are natural circulation reactor, pump jet, anechoic tiles, and in the future, integrated electric propulsion. None of these technologies seems to depend on pressure hull diameter.

Indeed, if the 095 does not feature these technologies, there would be little point of building a new class.

 

[The Observer]

If you look at submarine stealth technologies that are not currently present on Chinese submarines, there are natural circulation reactor, pump jet, anechoic tiles, and in the future, integrated electric propulsion. None of these technologies seems to depend on pressure hull diameter.

Indeed, if the 095 does not feature these technologies, there would be little point of building a new class.

Anechoic tiles are already present since the 039 diesel sub days, and it's been implemented on everything built since like the newer diesel subs (Type 039A and beyond) as well as Type 093 and 094.

The natural circulation reactor would be big and I believe we haven't really seen it implemented on Chinese nuke subs, but we can expect China's marine propulsion labs to be working on it.

Pump jet is a question mark for me. I believe it's more advantageous for long-range high-speed patrols (which is the main job for SSNs), but for low-speed stealthy maneuvers regular highly swept propeller is slightly better. There's news and rumors of rim-driven pump jet in Chinese marine propulsion labs though, and its implementation might be the next exciting news we can get.