09V/09VI (095/096) Nuclear Submarine Thread

[Anlsvrthng]

The left side of photo is the electric generator It is cooled by helium normally in civilian application
Yes it is small turbine that drive it on right side of the photo Above it is the steam manifold fed by steam generator(a kind of heat exchanger) which in turn receive heat from small reactor It is not shown here This is a prototype fed by conventional boiler to mimic nuclear reactor

the whole turbo generator is very compact ! 20 Mw civilian generator is huge. The original photo have maintenance people, engineer next to it to give a way to measure it
The whole turbo generator is about the 1-1/2 the size of blue generator sans turbine on your photo

This is too small o be cooled with hydrogen ( they use that for generator rotor cooling).
This size usually cooled by air.
As I remember a 220 MVA generator weight was 400 tons, rotor was 50 tons. 50 Hz.

As I calculated this small generator is in the range of 100 tons.Hard to see, but I think the stator diameter is 3.6 meter, and length is 2.4 meters.

 

[antiterror13]

This is too small o be cooled with hydrogen ( they use that for generator rotor cooling).
This size usually cooled by air.
As I remember a 220 MVA generator weight was 400 tons, rotor was 50 tons. 50 Hz.

As I calculated this small generator is in the range of 100 tons.Hard to see, but I think the stator diameter is 3.6 meter, and length is 2.4 meters.

it seems you knew everything ... amazing!

 

[hkbc]

it seems you knew everything ... amazing!

What's more amazing is how they manage to screw up regurgitating wikipedia,

This is too small o be cooled with hydrogen ( they use that for generator rotor cooling).
This size usually cooled by air.
As I remember a 220 MVA generator weight was 400 tons, rotor was 50 tons. 50 Hz.

As I calculated this small generator is in the range of 100 tons.Hard to see, but I think the stator diameter is 3.6 meter, and length is 2.4 meters.

Hydrogen has better thermal conductivity than air but has downsides (like it goes bang!) so it's typically only used when air cooling becomes sub-optimal as Generator sizes get BIGGER NOT that a generator is too SMALL to be hydrogen cooled! Using hydrogen cooling makes a generator MORE compact, so is absolutely the goto method if want a compact generator and don't mind the inherent issues with handling hydrogen

 

[Anlsvrthng]

What's more amazing is how they manage to screw up regurgitating wikipedia,



Hydrogen has better thermal conductivity than air but has downsides (like it goes bang!) so it's typically only used when air cooling becomes sub-optimal as Generator sizes get BIGGER NOT that a generator is too SMALL to be hydrogen cooled! Using hydrogen cooling makes a generator MORE compact, so is absolutely the goto method if want a compact generator and don't mind the inherent issues with handling hydrogen

?

These are basic design characteristics.

The generator LOSSES depends on the size of airgap, but the airgap is the only surface where the rotor can be cooled.
And in the single pole turbo generators the cooling gas viscosity / density causing friction loss as well.

Hydrogen has half viscosity + way less density and superior heat capacity.
Now, the big generator rotor has low rotor cooling surface / mass, the small has big surface/mass.
And anyway, the small generator has bigger losses.


So, the generator MASS is not driven by the rotor cooling method, but the efficiency depends on it,however wit small generators it is not that easy to calculate.
With small generators they can make small diameter rotors or other tricks to be able to use air.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Here is abit more info on this compact turbo generator via JSCh. You can see clearly the blue gas bottle on the right connected to the generator that will give you the idea of the generator size. See the huge inlet and stop valve at the manifold

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来自

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【新型航母动力！七〇四所20MW级船用汽轮发电机组通过鉴定】

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12月4日，由七〇四所自主研制的、拥有完全知识产权的20兆瓦级船用汽轮发电机组通过科技成果鉴定，成为国内功率等级最高的船用汽轮发电机组。中国工程院院士马伟明、中国工程院院士何琳及国内相关院所专家担任鉴定委员会委员。七〇四所所长高晓敏、所长助理赵跃平参加鉴定会。
China Ocean Shipping Magazine
Today 10:31
[New aircraft carrier power! 704th Institute 20MW class marine steam turbine generator sets passed appraisal]
On December 4th, the 20MW class marine steam turbine generator set independently developed by 704th Institute and possessing complete intellectual property rights passed the scientific and technological achievements appraisal and became the domestic marine steam turbine generator set with the highest power level. Ma Weiming, academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, He Lin, academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, and experts from relevant domestic institutions served as members of the appraisal committee. Gao Xiaomin, director of the 704th Institute, and Zhao Yueping, assistant to the director, attended the appraisal meeting.

compare to 6 MW caterpilar genset

GENERATOR SET DIMENSIONS
Height - Maximum 262.0 in
Height - Minimum 247.0 in
Length - Maximum 569.0 in
Length - Minimum 480.0 in
Width - Maximum 134.0 in
Width - Minimum 134.0 in

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Here is the reference of that genset

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Genset Rating Range 5290 - 7930 kWe
Fuel Type Gas / diesel oil / heavy fuel oil (HFO) / crude oil

 

[gelgoog]

It seems kind of low power for a submarine nuclear reactor. Unless they use two of these. Another possibility, if they want to use this in a submarine, would be to use it in something similar to the MESMA propulsion system that the French designed. You burn ethanol with oxygen to generate heat and use this steam turbine to turn that into motive power.
If it was to be used in something like a regular ship's marine gas turbine, the Chinese already have 27 MW gas turbines, so unless this is meant to replace something like a frigate or destroyer diesel engine I don't see it being used there either. Why not just use the 27 MW gas turbine? Is it just that this would have more efficiency? The Soviets used to put gas turbines in a lot of their small vessels to make them more able to keep up with enemy submarines for example so that could also be it.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

compare to 6 MW caterpilar genset

GENERATOR SET DIMENSIONS
Height - Maximum 262.0 in
Height - Minimum 247.0 in
Length - Maximum 569.0 in
Length - Minimum 480.0 in
Width - Maximum 134.0 in
Width - Minimum 134.0 in

Here are the important bits:
Engine Efficiency Up To 47.40%
Engine Rating Range 5400 - 8100 kW
Engine Type 4-stroke-engine
Frequency At Speed 50 Hz @ 500 / 60 Hz @ 514

So, it is a 12 pole machine ,the Chinese generator is a two pole machine (reason the name "turbo generator ")
It means that it rotating with 500 rpm, the steam turbine drive the generator with 3000 -3600 (USA) RPM.

The electrical motors/generators torque constant , (the internal combustion engine has bump like curve)

Means:
Power = torque * angular speed
angular speed = 2*pi*(rotation/seconds) - the torque calculated for one meter long arm anyway

Or you can express the above as P=Force *speed=Force *radius*omega=M*omega
: )


Generator torque independent of RPM, means if a generator power is 8.1 MWe at 500 rpm, then the power output of the same generator at 3000 rpm will have 48.6 MWe.
So, the caterpilar driven by steam turbine ( and with changes of the winding connections) will be twice as powerful as the above Chinese generator.

Of course the cooling will be deficient, because the losses will be scaled as well, and the airgap probably won't be big enough to move out the heat.And the rotor is not balanced for this speed.

Reason why the Caterpillar choose this is the efficiency, the slow rotating diesel has 47.4%, the steam turbine has 30-33%.
So this genset will be built into a ship that has abundant supply of steam, and the weight is premium on that ship.

 

[Anlsvrthng]

It seems kind of low power for a submarine nuclear reactor. Unless they use two of these. Another possibility, if they want to use this in a submarine, would be to use it in something similar to the MESMA propulsion system that the French designed. You burn ethanol with oxygen to generate heat and use this steam turbine to turn that into motive power.
If it was to be used in something like a regular ship's marine gas turbine, the Chinese already have 27 MW gas turbines, so unless this is meant to replace something like a frigate or destroyer diesel engine I don't see it being used there either. Why not just use the 27 MW gas turbine? Is it just that this would have more efficiency? The Soviets used to put gas turbines in a lot of their small vessels to make them more able to keep up with enemy submarines for example so that could also be it.

It is NOT for submarine.

I just realised that there is no damping between the frame and the generator/steam turbine, the pipework attached randomly without and special considerations, and due to the above ( sound damping and so on) no one would show a picture of a modern submarine turbine/generator to anyone with security clearance.

This generator works on 50 Hz, and that can be heard for 1000 kms, means separating the vibrations of it is the most essential to make a silent submarine.

I have a feeling about that the submarine generators work higher frequency than 50 Hz.
Those should works with 400 Hz, or maybe higher.

And finally this is not compact.

I think it is the generator of an aircraft carrier.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

It is NOT for submarine.

I just realised that there is no damping between the frame and the generator/steam turbine, the pipework attached randomly without and special considerations, and due to the above ( sound damping and so on) no one would show a picture of a modern submarine turbine/generator to anyone with security clearance.

This generator works on 50 Hz, and that can be heard for 1000 kms, means separating the vibrations of it is the most essential to make a silent submarine.

I have a feeling about that the submarine generators work higher frequency than 50 Hz.
Those should works with 400 Hz, or maybe higher.

And finally this is not compact.

I think it is the generator of an aircraft carrier.

This is not the finish product They just qualified it for certification process When they installed it in the submarine They will put it on the isolating raft The whole caboodle everything including the pump will be put on the raft You don't know what you are talking about here You are absolutely know nothing about submarine design !

This is small I put those huge 7 MW generator for comparison You can get sense of dimension by measuring it against the gas bottle You genius!
Based on 50 inch gas bottle the length of the genset is 5X50=250 inch =20feet or 7meter