071 LPD thread

[Iron Man]

2 things

First If you are going to assault a beech then you need the element of surprise, even if it is lightly defended

To have surpirse you need speed

In this day and age, only if you are assaulting a technologically backward enemy that you have already mostly pounded into dust, then maybe you could achieve a surprise beach landing somewhere along their coastline. Against Taiwan the PLAN will not be able to achieve any real surprise in any kind of beach assault. Even if all of Taiwan's recon planes are knocked out of the sky and the PLAAF has air superiority or even air supremacy, Taiwanese, US, and Japanese (and probably other nations') satellites will be constantly feeding information to the Taiwanese military about PLAN force deployments. The point of a ship like the 071 and the future 075/LHD and a task force that includes these ships against a modern enemy like Taiwan is not "surprise", it is beach accessibility. Hovercraft and helicopters dramatically increase the number and types of beaches that a 071 could assault that conventional ships like LSDs simply could not reach, forcing Taiwanese military planners to prepare defenses for many more locations than they would otherwise have to.

Regardless, when the 071 and its task force leaves harbor for Taiwan and takes the ~4 hour trip to the western coastline, the Taiwanese military will be tracking it. At worst, by the moment of attack the Taiwanese can narrow down the possibilities of target beaches to a few locations at most. Assuming the task force is launching an OTH attack, they will be sitting something like 40-50km out from shore to stay under the radar horizon of shore-based targeting radars. Amphibious IFVs, light tanks, and artillery launched from this far out will take ~2 hours to get to shore, hovercraft less than 1 hour, and helos less than 15 minutes. These would obviously all be timed to arrive at the same time. By the moment that IFVs start heading towards the shore, the Taiwanese military will know exactly which beach the task force has targeted and will have about 2 hours to finalize their defensive positions, as they will already have guessed beforehand based on the task force's position at least roughly where they will be attacked.

Second The other thing you will need is out flanking manoeuvres to get the action on multiple fronts to split the enemy defences

First one is achieved by LCAC the second objective is using a medium to heavy helo which is fast

You cannot half do this job otherwise there is too many moving parts and the invasion force will suffer

This knife cuts both ways. Assaulting multiple beaches just means that you will also have to split your forces along multiple fronts. The key to the success of a beach assault is to not only overwhelm the beach defenses but also to build up follow-on forces at that location faster than the defender can and you may not be able to achieve this if you have to reinforce multiple beaches. In the case of Taiwan it's a matter of moving vehicles, tanks and troops on highways and roads vs the PLAN having to make multiple round trips using mostly slow ships. The PLA and PLAN would IMO benefit most from a massive assault in one or two locations at most and throw everything they've got at these locations. The LHD/LPD force would almost certainly not be split into multiple assault fronts given the limited forces these ships could carry in the first place but would likely assault a secondary attack site rather than the main beach assault location that conventional ships like the LSD could beach on and where the PLAN would land the bulk of its forces.

China has built LPD, they have installed 4 x LCAC capacity they also have Type 726 a reasonable design so all indications are they are planning on building a ARG

Otherwise they could have split the LCAC to only 2 units like USN

So this tells me speed and lift is the core here, the helo deck is large the hanger is large can lift 4 x Z8 again this tells me over the horizon, speed and lift

But then to build and not carry the features is VERY confusing no amount of varying strategy can explain this nor can funding and priority listings

I think an ARG is definitely in the works, or more probably 3 ARGs each consisting of maybe one 075 and two 071s. I also think that an ARG equipped to attack Taiwan will be loaded full of ACVs like the 726. My point isn't that the 726 wouldn't be used, but that its overall effectiveness and contribution to the initial stages of an assault would be limited because of its limited floor space, and that the bulk of the strength of a sea-based assault from a 071 or a 075 will be swimming IFVs and Z-8/18s.

 

[asif iqbal]

Think you are missing the point

The biggest threat to a landing party is anti ship missile, they are getting more sophisticated by the day, this is why you need surprise landing

The further you are out at sea the less chance you have of getting clipped by a anti ship missile

This is why USN CH-46 Sea Knights were replaced with V22, it adds more range, load and less time

A San Antonio LPD used to have 4 x CH-46 on rear deck simultaneously rotors on now they can fit only 2 x V22 but the advantage in speed and time is worth more

You might add 20-30 km more range but that might be enough but the point is to minimise threat and lower the chances of getting hit

The Chinese marines would not have to take care of Taiwan, the 1st and 164th marine brigade totals around 12,000 marines not enough for Taiwan

Taiwan is the responsibility of the army, PLA would take care of Taiwan backed by the second artillery corps

 

[Iron Man]

Think you are missing the point

The biggest threat to a landing party is anti ship missile, they are getting more sophisticated by the day, this is why you need surprise landing

The further you are out at sea the less chance you have of getting clipped by a anti ship missile

This is why USN CH-46 Sea Knights were replaced with V22, it adds more range, load and less time

A San Antonio LPD used to have 4 x CH-46 on rear deck simultaneously rotors on now they can fit only 2 x V22 but the advantage in speed and time is worth more

You might add 20-30 km more range but that might be enough but the point is to minimise threat and lower the chances of getting hit
corps

Again, you are missing the point. There will be no "surprise" landing on Taiwan, essentially the only potential short to medium term target for a PLAN amphibious assault, at least not the kind of surprise you are thinking of, as in a total or near total surprise. There will be an OTH landing, which is NOT the same thing as a surprise landing. There will probably be a landing on a poorly defended and hard to access beach (by conventional ships), again not the same as a surprise landing. The Taiwanese will have several hours to anticipate a landing location by an ARG, and probably several days to even a few weeks to know that an ARG is loading up and preparing to come over.

Also, a hovercraft is not really designed to survive a landing on a heavily defended beach. That target beach will have been significantly softened up by air power prior to landing, which means the enemy already has a good clue where you plan to land.

As for antiship missiles, whether you're one km past the shore radar's horizon or 20km past makes little difference to an antiship missile with hundreds of km of range, but it makes a huge difference to both the hovercraft and to the swimmers as they will take much longer to get to shore than they need to or perhaps not even have the endurance to get to shore at all. For this reason the ARG would almost certainly stop as close to shore as possible without breaking the radar horizon, which like I said will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 to 50 km from shore. Besides, an ARG will be traveling with PLAN escorts so it's not like they are somehow naked in the face of an antiship missile.

The Chinese marines would not have to take care of Taiwan, the 1st and 164th marine brigade totals around 12,000 marines not enough for Taiwan

Taiwan is the responsibility of the army, PLA would take care of Taiwan backed by the second artillery corps

The Marines would most definitely be involved, as would literally every other soldier the Chinese military could put onto the beaches of Taiwan. Along with the kitchen sink. Guaranteed.

 

[plawolf]

But then to build and not carry the features is VERY confusing no amount of varying strategy can explain this nor can funding and priority listings

Because the pecking order can't be a decade long it can't be so far down that 10 years later we are still waiting for a loaded LCAC inside a Type 071 LPD

Can someone or has some one got any photos of a loaded LCAC inside the Type 071 LPD well deck ?? Have we ever seen such a photo? Please someone share

Well, something the Chinese are crystal clear about, which the west in general, and Americans in particular, seems to forget or ignore, is that demonstrating military capacity is also sending out a very clear and strong political message.

That is why the PLA is very careful about the kinds of images it release officially. But because of that, it would be a mistake to assume that just because we haven't seen a picture, that it doesn't happen.

LCACs are small and easy to hide away. What more, it's possible, likely even, that contracts for them would be given to smaller shipyards than the traditional naval favourites. Thus lowering their exposure to the normal crowd of photo takers.

Just as FON patrols are more about politics than real military needs, publishing photos of fully loaded 071s with a full OTH amphibious assault force will, irrespective of intention, send a very clear and threatening message to Taiwan.

It is only with a Taiwan scenario that such assets as LCAC will be needed.

One could argue that all the massed amphibious IFV swimming photos published thus far are directed towards the SCS rather than Taiwan.

Given the very limited range and speed of swimming IFVs, I don't think many on Taiwan will feel unduly threatened by the pictures of 071s, within a proverbial stone throw of a beach, disgorging swimmers.

OTOH, 071s deploying a full complement of LCACs with MBTs will be far more threatening for Taiwan.

Given the historically good relations with the previous Ma administion, is it any wonder China did not want to appear too threatening?

However, given the stunts the new Taiwan administration has been pulling WRT Trump, Beijing may well feel it needs to show more muscle to try and dissuade any more stunts. So we may well soon see pictures and video of 071s with full compliments of LCACs.

OTOH, if we see a muted response from China in the face of any similar such provocations, then it may actually be time to worry.

One of the few reason to not rattle your sabre when threatened is if you actually mean to draw it for real.

 

[FORBIN]

In this day and age, only if you are assaulting a technologically backward enemy that you have already mostly pounded into dust, then maybe you could achieve a surprise beach landing somewhere along their coastline. Against Taiwan the PLAN will not be able to achieve any real surprise in any kind of beach assault. Even if all of Taiwan's recon planes are knocked out of the sky and the PLAAF has air superiority or even air supremacy, Taiwanese, US, and Japanese (and probably other nations') satellites will be constantly feeding information to the Taiwanese military about PLAN force deployments. The point of a ship like the 071 and the future 075/LHD and a task force that includes these ships against a modern enemy like Taiwan is not "surprise", it is beach accessibility. Hovercraft and helicopters dramatically increase the number and types of beaches that a 071 could assault that conventional ships like LSDs simply could not reach, forcing Taiwanese military planners to prepare defenses for many more locations than they would otherwise have to.

Regardless, when the 071 and its task force leaves harbor for Taiwan and takes the ~4 hour trip to the western coastline, the Taiwanese military will be tracking it. At worst, by the moment of attack the Taiwanese can narrow down the possibilities of target beaches to a few locations at most. Assuming the task force is launching an OTH attack, they will be sitting something like 40-50km out from shore to stay under the radar horizon of shore-based targeting radars. Amphibious IFVs, light tanks, and artillery launched from this far out will take ~2 hours to get to shore, hovercraft less than 1 hour, and helos less than 15 minutes. These would obviously all be timed to arrive at the same time. By the moment that IFVs start heading towards the shore, the Taiwanese military will know exactly which beach the task force has targeted and will have about 2 hours to finalize their defensive positions, as they will already have guessed beforehand based on the task force's position at least roughly where they will be attacked.

View attachment 35919


This knife cuts both ways. Assaulting multiple beaches just means that you will also have to split your forces along multiple fronts. The key to the success of a beach assault is to not only overwhelm the beach defenses but also to build up follow-on forces at that location faster than the defender can and you may not be able to achieve this if you have to reinforce multiple beaches. In the case of Taiwan it's a matter of moving vehicles, tanks and troops on highways and roads vs the PLAN having to make multiple round trips using mostly slow ships. The PLA and PLAN would IMO benefit most from a massive assault in one or two locations at most and throw everything they've got at these locations. The LHD/LPD force would almost certainly not be split into multiple assault fronts given the limited forces these ships could carry in the first place but would likely assault a secondary attack site rather than the main beach assault location that conventional ships like the LSD could beach on and where the PLAN would land the bulk of its forces.


I think an ARG is definitely in the works, or more probably 3 ARGs each consisting of maybe one 075 and two 071s. I also think that an ARG equipped to attack Taiwan will be loaded full of ACVs like the 726. My point isn't that the 726 wouldn't be used, but that its overall effectiveness and contribution to the initial stages of an assault would be limited because of its limited floor space, and that the bulk of the strength of a sea-based assault from a 071 or a 075 will be swimming IFVs and Z-8/18s.

Think you are missing the point

The biggest threat to a landing party is anti ship missile, they are getting more sophisticated by the day, this is why you need surprise landing

The further you are out at sea the less chance you have of getting clipped by a anti ship missile

This is why USN CH-46 Sea Knights were replaced with V22, it adds more range, load and less time

A San Antonio LPD used to have 4 x CH-46 on rear deck simultaneously rotors on now they can fit only 2 x V22 but the advantage in speed and time is worth more

You might add 20-30 km more range but that might be enough but the point is to minimise threat and lower the chances of getting hit

The Chinese marines would not have to take care of Taiwan, the 1st and 164th marine brigade totals around 12,000 marines not enough for Taiwan

Taiwan is the responsibility of the army, PLA would take care of Taiwan backed by the second artillery corps

Interesting ofc have 071 but China for it in this case use LST or civils, cargos modified, ARG with 071 etc... are mainly used for long overseas deployment there it is the job for LSTs 200 km...

But OT and not in the rules...

 

[Iron Man]

OTOH, 071s deploying a full complement of LCACs with MBTs will be far more threatening for Taiwan.

Right, because landing a maximum of only 12 MBTs from every available hovercraft in a 3-ship ARG would be far more frightening than several times that many IFVs coming up out of the water.

Interesting ofc have 071 but China for it in this case use LST or civils, cargos modified, ARG with 071 etc... are mainly used for long overseas deployment there it is the job for LSTs 200 km...

But OT and not in the rules...

In the near term the Chinese military IMO barely has enough amphibious capability to mount a successful invasion of Taiwan (assuming no immediate US assistance), so during a Taiwan invasion, everything that the Chinese military can throw at Taiwan, it will throw at Taiwan.

 

[FORBIN]

In the near term the Chinese military IMO barely has enough amphibious capability to mount a successful invasion of Taiwan (assuming no immediate US assistance), so during a Taiwan invasion, everything that the Chinese military can throw at Taiwan, it will throw at Taiwan.

No new since severals year have enough transports.

 

[Lethe]

Sorry, I couldn't find the exact thread for this:

Can Zubrs go shore-to-shore from China to Taiwan? The range is there, but what about sea conditions?

 

[asif iqbal]

So I am assuming we have no photos of a loaded LCAC inside a well deck of Type 071 LPD? Anyone ??

All these discussions fall apart apart from what Plawolf said about maybe hiding the true capabilitys

Because simply put the Type 071 LPD is a huge LPD, it's internal capacity is msssive

Hanger can load 4 x Z18 the well deck can load 4 x LCAC

There are two further compartments in front of the well deck to handle more vehicles storage

The Type 071 has a serious lift capacity in mind , why ? For fun ? No for blue water amphibious operations

What I am asking is why they don't load up and show it ?

10 years is too long to wait !!!!

2017 be the year where they show us !!!

Or !? And this is a serious question there is a fatal design flaw in the Type 726???

 

[kriss]

What I am asking is why they don't load up and show it ?

They actually do.