055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Blitzo]

Like I said, the ONLY thing you have going for you is the hypothetical "HPM", as both GaN sensor and EW is ALREADY present on the Flight III Burke and it only requires 12MW. So please drop the "sensor" and "EW" part because for the purpose of this discussion they are both completely irrelevant unless you can somehow demonstrate that the 055's sensor and EW power requirements are in the neighborhood of 67% higher than the Flight III, and we both know you can't do this, so....

Why's that? Is the idea that 055's sensor and EW power demands may be significantly greater than that of Flight III, that implausible?

Again, I'm not trying to suggest or prove that 055 definitely has 20MW power output, I'm just trying to come up with reasonable ways in which 055 may have that sort of power requirement.

As for the HPM, this pie-in-the-sky weapon is about as much justification for "20MW" (another total conjecture) as "Martians live under the earth because we know that some of them are mind-controlling us". One total conjecture being used to justify another total conjecture is not much of anything in the end.

Oh, it's totally conjecture, but it's conjecture which I think has a reasonable basis with some fairly solid evidence behind the HPM and its applications.

I mean, is the idea that 055 may have a HPM weapon the equivalent of Martians living under the earth mind controlling people?

 

[antiterror13]

Does 20 MW also include for electricity use for lighting, AC, oven, etc, etc

 

[Iron Man]

What are you talking about Willis? Flight III still in power point status. 055 basically is the CG(X) that the USN was supposed to do but they chose not to

The contract for DDG 125 Jack H. Lucas was awarded last month to Huntington Ingalls, so we are way past the "power point" slides, Willis. Besides, even if the Flight III were still in "power point" stage, what does this have ANYTHING to do with the current discussion?

Why's that? Is the idea that 055's sensor and EW power demands may be significantly greater than that of Flight III, that implausible?

Again, I'm not trying to suggest or prove that 055 definitely has 20MW power output, I'm just trying to come up with reasonable ways in which 055 may have that sort of power requirement.

You can use "significantly greater" to justify 50 MW, that implausible?

Yes, 20 MW is not "impossible", but is definitely "implausible" when another ship spends 67% less power to run similar electronics. So no, you have not come up with "reasonable" ways in which 055 may have that sort of power requirement, you have come up with unreasonable ways in which 055 may have that sort of power requirement.

Oh, it's totally conjecture, but it's conjecture which I think has a reasonable basis with some fairly solid evidence behind the HPM and its applications.

I mean, is the idea that 055 may have a HPM weapon the equivalent of Martians living under the earth mind controlling people?

"Reasonable basis" and "fairly solid evidence"? Go ahead and share. I'm not talking about the concept of HPM in general, I'm talking about a Chinese naval HPM that has gotten some kind of attention in recent years.

Until you provide this evidence, then yes, an HPM weapon on board the 055 is the equivalent of Martians mind controlling people.

 

[Blitzo]

You can use "significantly greater" to justify 50 MW, that implausible?

Yes, 20 MW is not "impossible", but is definitely "implausible" when another ship spends 67% less power to run similar electronics. So no, you have not come up with "reasonable" ways in which 055 may have that sort of power requirement, you have come up with unreasonable ways in which 055 may have that sort of power requirement.

I would consider 50MW on the 055 to be very implausible compared to 16MW.
OTOH I do not consider 20MW on the 055 to be implausible compared to 16MW.

As for "similar electronics" -- I think you've got it backwards. I'm saying the 055 may have an electronics suite which is merely "similar" to Flight III but have total electronics which require greater power output to begin with.

"Reasonable basis" and "fairly solid evidence"? Go ahead and share. I'm not talking about the concept of HPM in general, I'm talking about a Chinese naval HPM that has gotten some kind of attention in recent years.

Yes, we have fairly solid evidence that an HPM programme has been under R&D for a while now, and one of the primary researchers for the programme in 2009 wrote a paper about the application of HPM against anti ship missiles.

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I consider that to be a reasonable basis to speculate/make conjecture about the possibility of an HPM aboard 055.

 

[Iron Man]

I would consider 50MW on the 055 to be very implausible compared to 16MW.
OTOH I do not consider 20MW on the 055 to be implausible compared to 16MW.

As for "similar electronics" -- I think you've got it backwards. I'm saying the 055 may have an electronics suite which is merely "similar" to Flight III but have total electronics which require greater power output to begin with.

Yeah, what's 4MW here and there, right? Again, it represents a 67% increase in power relative to a 22% increase in size compared to the Flight III. That already includes a 3MW increase in power from Flight IIA to Flight III, a 33% increase in power. So going from Flight IIA to 055 you are claiming more than a doubling of power requirements. Compared to the Flight III, you are claiming nothing other than HPM as the difference in your "total" electronics between the 055 and Flight III. That's really what your argument boils down to. Nothing else.

Yes, we have fairly solid evidence that an HPM programme has been under R&D for a while now, and one of the primary researchers for the programme in 2009 wrote a paper about the application of HPM against anti ship missiles.

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I consider that to be a reasonable basis to speculate/make conjecture about the possibility of an HPM aboard 055.

So basically you're speculating based on speculation, since this is a fluff piece (written this year) that says China has been researching HPM for many decades. It claims nothing about a system ready to deploy, to speak nothing of a system ready to deploy on ships. We clearly differ on what constitutes "reasonable basis" for speculation.

 

[Blitzo]

Yeah, what's 4MW here and there, right? Again, it represents a 67% increase in power relative to a 22% increase in size compared to the Flight III. That already includes a 3MW increase in power from Flight IIA to Flight III, a 33% increase in power. So going from Flight IIA to 055 you are claiming more than a doubling of power requirements. Compared to the Flight III, you are claiming nothing other than HPM as the difference in your "total" electronics between the 055 and Flight III. That's really what your argument boils down to. Nothing else.

Regarding the underlined part -- yes, I'm claiming I think such a doubling of power requirements (from Flight IIA to 055) is plausible. And I'm saying I believe such a doubling of power requirements could plausibly be due to significant differences in the power demand of the electronics systems (including or not including HPM).

So basically you're speculating based on speculation, since this is a fluff piece (written this year) that says China has been researching HPM for many decades. It claims nothing about a system ready to deploy, to speak nothing of a system ready to deploy on ships. We clearly differ on what constitutes "reasonable basis" for speculation.

I'm speculating based on what I consider to be a reasonable basis and fairly solid evidence.

Please read what I wrote back then -- I wrote "Oh, it's totally conjecture, but it's conjecture which I think has a reasonable basis with some fairly solid evidence behind the HPM and its applications."

If we had solid evidence of a system ready to deploy on ships, then I wouldn't have said "conjecture" and I would've said something closer to "near confirmation" instead.
Instead, we have solid evidence that such a system has been under development for quite a while and has had at least one significant test in 2010, with one of the lead researchers having co-authored a paper about the role of HPM in defending against AShMs. So that is the basis upon which I've built my speculation regarding 055 potentially having an HPM.

 

[antiterror13]

Type 055 no. 3 + 4 at Dalian - 20170713

View attachment 40580

I'd bet these two 055s will be launched by early next year, even possibly this year

 

[Iron Man]

Regarding the underlined part -- yes, I'm claiming I think such a doubling of power requirements (from Flight IIA to 055) is plausible. And I'm saying I believe such a doubling of power requirements could plausibly be due to significant differences in the power demand of the electronics systems (including or not including HPM).

What do you mean including or not including HPM? So, not including HPM, what different electronics systems have you mentioned that are present on the 055 but not present on the Flight III?

I'm speculating based on what I consider to be a reasonable basis and fairly solid evidence.

Please read what I wrote back then -- I wrote "Oh, it's totally conjecture, but it's conjecture which I think has a reasonable basis with some fairly solid evidence behind the HPM and its applications."

If we had solid evidence of a system ready to deploy on ships, then I wouldn't have said "conjecture" and I would've said something closer to "near confirmation" instead.
Instead, we have solid evidence that such a system has been under development for quite a while and has had at least one significant test in 2010, with one of the lead researchers having co-authored a paper about the role of HPM in defending against AShMs. So that is the basis upon which I've built my speculation regarding 055 potentially having an HPM.

Ok fine, we'll just have to leave it at "total conjecture" then. Though my personal estimation is that this conjecture for you is not very total, since you've literally got nothing else to hang your increased power requirements hat on.

 

[Blitzo]

What do you mean including or not including HPM? So, not including HPM, what different electronics systems have you mentioned that are present on the 055 but not present on the Flight III?

We obviously don't know the totality of what electronics systems (not including HPM) that 055 has, and so we don't know what their power requirements are relative to the Flight III.

It could be less, it could be equal, or it could be more. I'm saying I think it's plausible for it to be more, up to the benchmark of 20MW vs 12MW.

Maybe 055's Type 346 variant has greater power requirement than SPY-6, maybe its X band radar is greater power requirement than Flight III's AMDR-X (whenever it eventuates), maybe 055 has a more complex and more powerful set of active EW measures than Flight III. Who knows.
The purpose of my argument over these posts isn't to prove that the 055 has 20MW or to prove that 055 has a certain set of subsystems that necessitates 20MW.

The purpose of my argument is merely to show it's plausible for 055 to have subsystems that may require a 20MW power output.
If a Flight IIA to Flight III Burke with the change of their radars and an increase in displacement of only a few hundred tons requires a change from 9MW to 12MW of power, then is it implausible to think the 055 -- a clean sheet hull design whose full electronics suite we do not even know, and whose Type 346 variant we do not even know is the same as that of the 052D, and whose full displacement may be up to 3000 tons more than a Flight III Burke -- may have a complete electronics suite that may require 20MW?

Ok fine, we'll just have to leave it at "total conjecture" then. Though my personal estimation is that this conjecture for you is not very total, since you've literally got nothing else to hang your increased power requirements hat on.

You've lost me a little bit here, but I think it isn't important to the thrust of this discussion so whatever.

 

[Iron Man]

We obviously don't know the totality of what electronics systems (not including HPM) that 055 has, and so we don't know what their power requirements are relative to the Flight III.

It could be less, it could be equal, or it could be more. I'm saying I think it's plausible for it to be more, up to the benchmark of 20MW vs 12MW.

Maybe 055's Type 346 variant has greater power requirement than SPY-6, maybe its X band radar is greater power requirement than Flight III's AMDR-X (whenever it eventuates), maybe 055 has a more complex and more powerful set of active EW measures than Flight III. Who knows.
The purpose of my argument over these posts isn't to prove that the 055 has 20MW or to prove that 055 has a certain set of subsystems that necessitates 20MW.

The purpose of my argument is merely to show it's plausible for 055 to have subsystems that may require a 20MW power output.
If a Flight IIA to Flight III Burke with the change of their radars and an increase in displacement of only a few hundred tons requires a change from 9MW to 12MW of power, then is it implausible to think the 055 -- a clean sheet hull design whose full electronics suite we do not even know, and whose Type 346 variant we do not even know is the same as that of the 052D, and whose full displacement may be up to 3000 tons more than a Flight III Burke -- may have a complete electronics suite that may require 20MW?

You missed the entire point by comparing Flight IIA to Flight III. We know for a fact that there are major changes that require a significant power increase, namely a GaN SPY-6 and GaN AMDR-X. The SPY-6 is quoted as requiring twice the power of the SPY-1D. The problem for your argument is that there are no major changes from a Flight III to a 055 that necessitates a dramatic power increase since we are already assuming the 346B is GaN and not GaAs, which actually is by no means a guarantee, and assuming there is a GaN X-band panel on the 055 as well, which actually is also by no means a guarantee. Even assuming that all of these are true, you've got nothing more than that over the Flight III. You've got a ~20% larger ship, which as I said could easily be more than offset by four 4MW generators generating 16MW. So your argument for 4 extra MW is basically HPM, and/or a 25% penalty in power for 'Chinese inefficiency', yes? Because SPY-6 + AMDR-X presumably only requires 3 extra MW between the two of them, and they are the largest and most power-intensive electronics systems on the ship. But yet somehow we can squeeze in 4 extra MW somewhere into the 055 for various unnamable electronics reasons.