055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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shen

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China is not too worried about the Paciifc region they have the 3 island stratedgy for that

Main area Chinese CCP is looking at is the Indian Ocean and to project power in the area they have a 4 axis stratedgy for permennent naval bases, one in the South Indian Ocean in Seychelles area one in West Indian Ocean along East Coast of Africa and Oman and Yemen and one to cover North Indian Ocean at Gwader Pakistan and the East is covered by China itself

That's 3 overseas permennent naval bases I would think each will have a Chinese naval flotilla based there as well as repair and spares parts facility's

Each flotilla will likely have a 2 x FFG, 1 x DDG and a replenishment tanker so that's 12 warships based overseas, if your going to deploy a carrier oversea facility's becomes very important

I'm been reading for more than a decade alarmists' writing about grandiose Chinese plan of domination with catchy name such String of Pearl strategy. Every time a Chinese company make an investment in a foreign port, alarmists immediate writing about a new Chinese naval base in the making. I really like the sound of 4 axis strategy, even catchier and definite more ominous sounding than String of Pearl (which frankly sounds like a bad porn title). Let us know when the first Chinese permanent oversea base becomes operational.
 

no_name

Colonel
I'm been reading for more than a decade alarmists' writing about grandiose Chinese plan of domination with catchy name such String of Pearl strategy. Every time a Chinese company make an investment in a foreign port, alarmists immediate writing about a new Chinese naval base in the making. I really like the sound of 4 axis strategy, even catchier and definite more ominous sounding than String of Pearl (which frankly sounds like a bad porn title). Let us know when the first Chinese permanent oversea base becomes operational.

I actually wonder if this would have a cry-wolf effect and then everyone gets desensitized in the long run.
 

shen

Senior Member
On the contrary, I believe the PLAN's desire for aircraft carriers and a blue water navy is deliberately meant to project power in distant shores and waters.

Projecting naval power is worth the slight detriment to the chinese economy if it means China's SLOCs are more secure.
Indeed, if China wasn't willing to bite the cost, then they wouldn't be building a blue water navy in the first place.


Yes, China is trying to cut down on energy imports, but for the forseeable future their energy supply lines will still be vulnerable. Further, even if China is one day fully self sufficient, they still have their own trade and cargo ships transiting along SLOCs that must be protected as well.


Furthermore, China also has many overseas economic interests as well as places with citizens that may need evacuation or protection. This can only be done by military presence and this includes a power projecting navy.
Now, power projection doesn't necessarily have to equal over extension and being bogged down in a land war. Like you said I'm sure China has watched the US and knows what they should and shouldn't do. However, that doesn't mean China will not seek to project power in distant seas and perhaps onto distant lands in its own way.

Why are we even talking about PLAN projecting power to distant shores and Chinese CVBG on permanent deployment in the Indian Ocean when PLAN doesn't even have local superiority in its home water yet? When foreign warships can't routinely cruise close to Chinese shores, can't routinely disrupt PLAN exercises, maybe then we can talking about PLAN projecting power. Forward deploying a squadron that doesn't have overwhelming superiority over the opposition doesn't deter, it just becomes a target. Think Prince of Wales and Repulse, think German East Asia Squadron.
PLAN major combat assets should be concentrated in home water. Train, build up capabilities, achieve local superiority, that's how you deter aggression. Forward deployments should be carried out with self sufficient ships, attract the maximum attention with the minimum resources, tie down as much oppositional resources as possible to help the home fleets gain local superiority.
 

Blitzo

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I'm been reading for more than a decade alarmists' writing about grandiose Chinese plan of domination with catchy name such String of Pearl strategy. Every time a Chinese company make an investment in a foreign port, alarmists immediate writing about a new Chinese naval base in the making. I really like the sound of 4 axis strategy, even catchier and definite more ominous sounding than String of Pearl (which frankly sounds like a bad porn title). Let us know when the first Chinese permanent oversea base becomes operational.


Yes, I don't think China is planning any permanent oversea bases or naval ports any time soon.

However the overall goal for blue water power projection will still remain.
 

shen

Senior Member
Yes, I don't think China is planning any permanent oversea bases or naval ports any time soon.

However the overall goal for blue water power projection will still remain.

Hopefully never. Global imperialism is repugnant to Chinese culture. Western academics like to point out burning of Zheng He's treasure fleet as the start of China's decline. But the Confucian officials who opposed Zheng He's expeditions had good reason. The treasure fleet expeditions were drain the state treasure, government had to increase taxes on the people to fund the trips, which brought back little benefits to China. Refusing to participate in imperialism wasn't the cause of China's decline.
 

Blitzo

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Why are we even talking about PLAN projecting power to distant shores and Chinese CVBG on permanent deployment in the Indian Ocean when PLAN doesn't even have local superiority in its home water yet?

History is full of incidences when great powers may not attain full military superiority in their own local region but have the capability to project power in blue water.
The European naval powers of past centuries all tussled with each other in the atlantic, mediterranean, while also projecting power abroad whether it was attacking each other's merchant fleets, protecting or creating colonies, etc.

Another example is the ROKN -- they are nowhere near having local naval supremacy in the western pacific -- they have JMSDF, PLAN and even ROCN all stuck in the same region, but ROKN is still seeking blue water power projection capability despite that.

Therefore, we can see that local naval supremacy is not a prerequisite for blue water power projection. There are few powers in history who have attained local naval supremacy before attaining blue water power projection -- the USN is possibly the only navy in recent history who can wholly make that claim, and that is a result of its geography and Canada and Mexico's friendliness to the USA.


When foreign warships can't routinely cruise close to Chinese shores, can't routinely disrupt PLAN exercises, maybe then we can talking about PLAN projecting power. Forward deploying a squadron that doesn't have overwhelming superiority over the opposition doesn't deter, it just becomes a target. Think Prince of Wales and Repulse, think German East Asia Squadron.

I disagree that local naval superiority is a prerequisite for blue water power projection. It is preferable, but geography simply makes that an untenable proposal -- because for China to obtain local naval superiority over pacific USN+JMSDF+ROKN+ROCN+SCS navies before trying to aim for a blue water navy, they would need a navy larger than the entire USN.

If China concentrated all its naval forces at home, it would leave their SLOCs wide open and literally defenseless to state actors.
The only logical route is therefore to sensibly balance their local defenses with as comprehensive a blue water force as they can.

I agree that forward deploying a force without overwhelming superiority may not deter a comprehensive attack by a highly competent foe -- and in this case, a forward deployed PLAN CVBG's only real threat would really just be the USN. (In which case, a USN attack on a PLAN taskgroup would mean something close to WWIII anyway)
Even if a PLAN forward deployed naval group is somewhat vulnerable, that forward deployed presence may be changed according to the threat level.
But that doesn't mean the PLAN can afford to leave their SLOCs undefended during peacetime, or leave their interests in africa be left without a close naval force in case things go south.

(And by 2030, the balance of power in the western pacific should only be more in china's favour anyway)

Also, note that not all of China's potential foes may be the USN+JMSDF. That is to say, other weaker foes may seek to attack chinese shipping and chinese interests as well, so the PRC should naturally be ready for such contingencies especially as China increases its investments in africa and becomes more embedded in global sea trade.



PLAN major combat assets should be concentrated in home water. Train, build up capabilities, achieve local superiority, that's how you deter aggression. Forward deployments should be carried out with self sufficient ships, attract the maximum attention with the minimum resources, tie down as much oppositional resources as possible to help the home fleets gain local superiority.


Simply concentrating forces in your local region is not a viable strategy if your distant SLOCs are vulnerable to attack.

You may deter local aggression, but you'll invite aggression to your more distant points of weakness.


You see PLAN forward deployments as a means to tie down enemy resources so China has a more favourable force balance in a localized westpac conflict.
I see PLAN forward deployments as a protective, stabilizing force during peacetime, and during crises they act as a ready intervention/deterrence force. During a full scale conflict with a near peer state actor, forward deployed naval forces will certainly be vulnerable, but will also have the capacity to give the PRC more military options and to draw the enemy beyond China's shores.
Furthermore, in the PRC's westpac doctrine I see PLAAF and 2nd artillery as arguably more important than the PLAN, so in future they can spare a CVBG for blue water actions anyway.



Note: this entire scenario is one where the PLAN have a force of 5 carriers, associated escorts, and a similarly proportional number of amphibious assault ships.

Unless something goes really wrong with the PRC economy or the PLAN has a dramatic shift in mission, I see a forward deployed PLAN as inevitable.

With their economic interests and shipping/energy vulnerabilities in the west indian ocean region, I don't understand how anyone can think they wouldn't seek to deploy a permanent naval presence to guard them.

It actually isn't too different to what they're currently doing.

They've had at least 2 DDG/FFGs + 1 AOR in the gulf of aden permanently for the better side of three, four years now.
What I'm suggesting is simply that they double that force and add on a carrier and an SSN.

Considering how large the PLAN is projected to grow in coming years, such an idea is hardly preposterous, especially if we consider how small the PLAN was just four years ago when they started their anti piracy mission.
Heck, with their naval growth in the last few years, they now probably have the capacity to send four surface combatants and 2 AORs there if they really want to.

By 2030 they should be able to manage a carrier, four DDG/FFGs, 1-2 AORs, and an SSN without much sweat.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Hopefully never. Global imperialism is repugnant to Chinese culture. Western academics like to point out burning of Zheng He's treasure fleet as the start of China's decline. But the Confucian officials who opposed Zheng He's expeditions had good reason. The treasure fleet expeditions were drain the state treasure, government had to increase taxes on the people to fund the trips, which brought back little benefits to China. Refusing to participate in imperialism wasn't the cause of China's decline.

Well...global is a bit of a stretch, but I wouldn't suggest the general concept of imperialism itself is repugnant to Chinese culture (let's be honest here, there's a reason why, and I say this loosely, they don't like China in Mongolia, Korea, and Vietnam). I also wouldn't suggest that Western academics think that the burning of Zheng He's treasure fleet was a refusal to participate in imperialism, or that the point of having a strong exploratory navy was about imperialism, or that in order to turn an exploratory navy into something that was more economically sustainable one had to resort to imperialism.
 
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Blitzo

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Hopefully never. Global imperialism is repugnant to Chinese culture. Western academics like to point out burning of Zheng He's treasure fleet as the start of China's decline. But the Confucian officials who opposed Zheng He's expeditions had good reason. The treasure fleet expeditions were drain the state treasure, government had to increase taxes on the people to fund the trips, which brought back little benefits to China. Refusing to participate in imperialism wasn't the cause of China's decline.


Of course, there is also a difference between imperialism and global sea trade (along with the necessary naval force to defend sea trade routes).

History might have been different had China seized upon the technologies that allowed Zheng He's voyages to occur, and instead of imperialism, used them to create an oceanic silk road before the later rise of major seaborne trade sponsored by imperialism.


Of course, today, the world and China are all dependent on seaborne trade and seaborne energy routes, so it is a wise investment to develop navies that are able to protect these essential arteries. That, is different to imperialism.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Allow my to drop my two cents on the broader point of this (really off topic) discussion.

One needs to keep in mind that in the event of a prolonged total war, maintaining your war industry is the bedrock of your military power, so much so that destroying one another's war economy becomes a primary focus in a conflict. In China's case this puts a lot of pressure on maintaining their SLOC because, unfortunately for China, 1.3 billion people and relatively poor natural endowments creates a form of trade dependence for high intensity industrial activity. This is why global trade will become even more important for China than for the US, and also why having a very capable forward deployed navy that can operate independently (carrier groups) is a critical strategic asset.

Keep in mind that countries don't pursue global trade and even imperialism because they're greedy and evil and have a nasty brutish culture, but because they're incentivized to do so by the VERY compelling logic of international political economy. China is not exempt from this logic. I fully expect the extension of that logic will come not only in the form of forward deployment and power projection, but in the eventual establishment of foreign bases. That's not to say that China will become an imperial entity (depending on the scope of activity which qualifies one's definition of imperialism), but it does mean that China will have to take interest in global security, and will probably have maintain a presence in other countries. If China wants to take the lead as an economic power it isn't going to become a global power because it wants to, but because it will need to, at least until the underlying goals that drive its decisions and/or the fundamental principles that dictate its economy changes. If or when China is no longer dependent on global trade, or if the costs begin to supersede the benefits of maintaining such a system, things will simply shift to a new equilibrium point. This is the risk that countries take if they want to be a world leading economy. Sometimes you start off not wanting to become a superpower but needing to, which is, in fact, what happened to the US.

Of course, one could point to Europe and Japan, but that really only leads to a more basic reason for why China is militarizing rapidly and seeks to have power projection abilities. While most of the industrialized world can simply rely on the US to stabilize global security for international trade, China can't or won't. China, unfortunately, does not trust the US, in part because the collective sentiment of the country still feels burned by a century long history of Western intervention, in part because they have mutually conflicting entrenched security interests and political goals (Taiwan, potential resource conflicts, etc), and in part because even without those concurrent conflicts of interests neither side yet knows if future ones will emerge. This is why China is adamant about having power projection capabilities and will have an interest in establishing operations far outside its immediately neighborhood, so that it can secure resources in the event that a disagreement with this other power it doesn't trust turns nasty.

Ultimately, this isn't to say that any one side means ill for the other, but until those conflicts of interest and trust issues are resolved, China will find it a prerogative to be able to secure its own global needs independently of the incumbent security order established by the US. (I realize that this entry sounds rather declarative, so I should let it be known that I find this current situation to be highly unfortunate, and would rather that this not be the case. Furthermore, despite the severity of the issues I pointed out, I do believe there are ways to diplomatically resolve these tensions, rather than through military conflict). First and last I'll say on this topic. We should all move back to talking about the Type 055.
 
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Blitzo

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Ultimately, this isn't to say that any one side means ill for the other, but until those conflicts of interest and trust issues are resolved, China will find it a prerogative to be able to secure its own global needs independently of the incumbent security order established by the US. (I realize that this entry sounds rather declarative, so I should let it be known that I find this current situation to be highly unfortunate, and would rather that this not be the case. Furthermore, despite the severity of the issues I pointed out, I do believe there are ways to diplomatically resolve these tensions, rather than through military conflict). First and last I'll say on this topic. We should all move back to talking about the Type 055.

+1 to everything

--

Unfortunately, 055 is having a slow news year :p
 
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