054/A FFG Thread II

[Bhurki]

Too much talk no updates

There probably won't be many updates any time soon since even the design hasnt been finalized yet.
I guess it won't be a surprise if they drop any new design on frigates altogether and go for extra 052d class vessels since the successor to 054a would have quite a lot in common to the light destroyer.

 

[Franklin]

Maybe there is no update because there is no such program. What would a Type 054B do ? Its better than the Type 054A but it will still be less than the Type 052D and the Type 055. Such a ship doesn't make sense. Its makes far more sense to continue to upgrade and improve the Type 052D and the Type 055 platforms. There is already a stretched Type 052D (161m) in the works with enlarged helicopter platform and facilities. Presumably to carry the future navalized Z-20 helicopters.

I'm however in favour of upgrading the existing Type 054A fleet in the future with a phased array radar like those on the Type 054A/P exported to Pakistan and stronger anti-sub capabilities.

I'm also in favour of the Type 818 cutter based on the Type 054 hull design. Those are far better than those 2 120000 ton monstrosities. There are currently only 4 of those ships there should be more.

 

[Tam]

Maybe there is no update because there is no such program. What would a Type 054B do ? Its better than the Type 054A but it will still be less than the Type 052D and the Type 055. Such a ship doesn't make sense. Its makes far more sense to continue to upgrade and improve the Type 052D and the Type 055 platforms. There is already a stretched Type 052D (161m) in the works with enlarged helicopter platform and facilities. Presumably to carry the future navalized Z-20 helicopters.

It would be cheaper than a 052D, quite possibly more EW resistant. The future Chinese frigate maybe all AESA, while the 052D still uses mechanical radars other than its main search radar. The future frigate will still be cheaper than an all AESA 052 or the 055 which is already all AESA.

Some time ago I posted but earlier this year taken from Chinese social media that there was an ad in China looking to hire developers to work for QT interface for an 0X4B project. The latter implies 054B, and QT is a software used for making GUIs or graphical user interfaces for Linux or Windows. This shows there is indeed a 054B project, at least 054B might be its working name (can be changed later), but it is still in an early stage where its IT systems are still being developed.

I'm however in favour of upgrading the existing Type 054A fleet in the future with a phased array radar like those on the Type 054A/P exported to Pakistan and stronger anti-sub capabilities.

No problem there. But that is a separate issue from developing a more modern frigate fleet.

I'm also in favour of the Type 818 cutter based on the Type 054 hull design. Those are far better than those 2 120000 ton monstrosities. There are currently only 4 of those ships there should be more.

I believe there is a purpose for these 12,000 monsters. The most dominant structure in those ships are their large superstructures which are for living space. They are intended to carry a large amount of people so they might have extensive medical facilities and resident rooms. Rescue of downed ferry or cruise ship or downed airliner? Evacuation of Chinese citizens in a country or region in crisis? Provide assistance for regional catastrophe?

 

[Tam]

@horobeyo seems to have picked up some 054B rumors. Google machine translation is pretty bad.

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エレベーターで耳にはいた噂：なんちゃら艦となんちゃら艦の建造は取り消された話、未来性が足りない訳。設計を最初からやり直す。「一番目の話がはっきりと聞いた、054Bだそうだ」。「未来性が足りない」が深刻に覚えたという。

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Translated from Japanese by
Rumors heard in the elevator: The story of the ship and the construction of the ship has been canceled, and the future is not enough. Redesign from the beginning. “I heard the first story clearly, it seems to be 054B.” “The future is not enough” is said to have been seriously learned.

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今まで見た054Bの想像図からみると、確かイギリスのタイープ26などに比べりゃ年代感を感じるデザインが気がするけど。そりゃ054/054A自体が00年代前半の設計だから、つい最近の26型には比べるものではない訳。むしろ既に30年間続いて、これがらも大量注文が発足するバーク級が異例だった。
Translated from Japanese by
From the imagination of 054B that I've seen so far, I'm sure the design feels like a period when compared to British Type 26. That's why the 054 / 054A itself was designed in the early 00s, so it's not comparable to the latest 26-inch. Rather, it was unusual for the Bark class, which lasted for 30 years, and where large orders were established.



The way I see it, the first iteration of the 054B is cancelled. The design may already have been dated from get go. My opinion based on the leak drawings was that the designs did not have much future potential and you are going to build new ships that are already obsolete with the incoming new generation of frigates, i.e. Type 26, FFG(X), 30FF, and so on. I am going to go on and say even the fan drawings are already dated. So it's back to the drawing boards. That's why I am arguing against H/AJK-16 VLS and slanted launchers, or anything that makes the future frigate look like an outgrowth of the 054A. This needs to stop evolving from the 054A and look to a design with more future potential, like downsizing from the 055, go all out AESA go all U-VLS. The project itself is not dead per se, its was tossed aside and being rebuilt from the ground up.

 

[lcloo]

Indeed a revolutionary design for the next generation frigate prevails over an evolutionary one from existing type 054A. New break through in propulsions, sensors and weapons renders type 054A dated.

All electric propulsion, laser weapon, Z20 helicopters, all AESA radars etc will require extensive new hull and superstructure redesigns, thus calling the NG frigate 054B will do injustice to the ship.

Testing and maturing all these new features require time, the delay in building the new NG frigates is understandable.

 

[Lethe]

The problem with a more revolutionary type is that it necessarily takes longer to bring to service, involves higher R&D and probably production costs, and most importantly carries much higher risk with potential blowouts of both timelines, budgets, and potential shortfall of capabilities (see Zumwalt's AGS). PLAN has generally avoided such projects in the past (or at least maintained a dual-track approach) and has benefitted considerably from this in contrast to the difficulties western navies have had with their next-generation projects. Evidently, PLAN now believes that it has enough capability in the present, and coming online through other project streams (055, 052x, SSNs, 056, etc.) that it is worth taking a risk on the next-generation frigate. Whether this is in fact a wise decision remains to be seen.

Personally I don't believe that PLAN's strength in the context of its strategic environment is at the point where it can afford to sacrifice short-term capabilities for a longer-term payoff. I think that a ~4500-ton 054B program of at least 20 units, with new generation of radars and anti-ship missiles and CODAG propulsion and other modest improvements would've been a very sensible investment to bring the entire FFG force to modern standards. Any deficiencies in long-term growth prospects, could then be rectified with another frigate program in the 2030s, at much lower risk than trying to provide for those capabilities today. If necessary, this could be coupled with early retirement and transfer of 054A units to friendly nations.

 

[Tam]

Once it goes into CODAG it likely won't be 054B in its final designation, as the designation also implies its power train layout. You would have to assume 2 gas turbine 2 diesel CODAG will be reserved for the 052 designation. A one gas turbine, two diesel CODAG may get a new designation,

I also suspect the PLAN has manning issues, resulting in the delayed commissions of the latest 052D destroyers. This is going to worsen if you have to man both a 052D and a 054B line simultaneously. PLAN might be taking a risk but its a well calculated risk, to leave out the frigates for now, as they already have 30 of them; a still active program building the 056A corvettes, now on its third batch; and the 052DL. 052DL is becoming more and more of a frigate as our size definitions of the ships continue to expand so the 052D is now borderline heavy frigate territory. These two ships will get produced until the new designs to replace them happen.

One thing I failed to consider before, and I am considering now, that the 056 replacement might itself be a frigate. The PLAN is turning full circle. A future heavy corvette, with 8 antiship missiles, a more capable air defense, a hanger for the helicopter, is in essence a 2020 Jiangwei that already overlaps the 054A at the bottom end. While on the other hand, an expanded 054 type with turbines, two hangers for two helos, carrying equal to more armament, that starts to sound like a 2020 designed 051B or 052B. This ship starts to overlap the 052D at the lower point.

As you said there is dual track. But the conservative track is now the 052DL and the risky track is now the 055, while previously, the conservative track is the 054A, and the risky track is the 052C/D. To keep up with the bold steps in frigate design around the world, the next Chinese Future Frigate requires that it be a bolder design. In other words it needs to take the risky path on the low end side, while the 052DL maintains the safe path. The maturing of the technologies in the 055 may also pave the way for the future frigate.

 

[AndrewS]

Once it goes into CODAG it likely won't be 054B in its final designation, as the designation also implies its power train layout. You would have to assume 2 gas turbine 2 diesel CODAG will be reserved for the 052 designation. A one gas turbine, two diesel CODAG may get a new designation,

I also suspect the PLAN has manning issues, resulting in the delayed commissions of the latest 052D destroyers. This is going to worsen if you have to man both a 052D and a 054B line simultaneously. PLAN might be taking a risk but its a well calculated risk, to leave out the frigates for now, as they already have 30 of them; a still active program building the 056A corvettes, now on its third batch; and the 052DL. 052DL is becoming more and more of a frigate as our size definitions of the ships continue to expand so the 052D is now borderline heavy frigate territory. These two ships will get produced until the new designs to replace them happen.

One thing I failed to consider before, and I am considering now, that the 056 replacement might itself be a frigate. The PLAN is turning full circle. A future heavy corvette, with 8 antiship missiles, a more capable air defense, a hanger for the helicopter, is in essence a 2020 Jiangwei that already overlaps the 054A at the bottom end. While on the other hand, an expanded 054 type with turbines, two hangers for two helos, carrying equal to more armament, that starts to sound like a 2020 designed 051B or 052B. This ship starts to overlap the 052D at the lower point.

As you said there is dual track. But the conservative track is now the 052DL and the risky track is now the 055, while previously, the conservative track is the 054A, and the risky track is the 052C/D. To keep up with the bold steps in frigate design around the world, the next Chinese Future Frigate requires that it be a bolder design. In other words it needs to take the risky path on the low end side, while the 052DL maintains the safe path. The maturing of the technologies in the 055 may also pave the way for the future frigate.

Why would delaying a Frigate successor be a calculated risk?

If we're looking at a high-end conflict, there is a:
1. a shortage of high-end destroyers
2. a surplus of frigates and corvettes.


Also, remember the cost differences between classes:

1600ton Type-56 Corvette $107M
4000ton Type-54A Frigate $200M
7000ton Type-52D Destroyer $500M
12000ton Type-55 Cruiser $900M

A future heavy corvette as you envision is going to cost almost as much as a Type-54A Frigate anyway.

Plus Frigates aren't supposed to be about risky and bold new designs.
That is incompatible with characteristics such as low-risk, low cost, reliability etc, which is what you want for a Frigate.

We can see the US Navy is going back to proven and less-risky technologies for their next Frigate.

If there are risky and bold new technologies, they don't belong on a production line until they've been proven out on a few test ships.
Eg. IEPS, railguns, lasers, trimaran frigate hull designs.

Plus the advent of AI plus unmanned vehicles in the air, underwater and on the surface is changing the definition of ASW warfare.

But it will be a few years before the capabilities of the technologies are known and then what the optimal Frigate design should look like.

 

[Bhurki]

Rumors heard in the elevator: The story of the ship and the construction of the ship has been canceled, and the future is not enough. Redesign from the beginning. “I heard the first story clearly, it seems to be 054B.” “The future is not enough” is said to have been seriously learned.

What i said earlier might actually turn out to be true I'm afraid.

I guess it won't be a surprise if they drop any new design on frigates altogether and go for extra 052d class vessels since the successor to 054a would have quite a lot in common to the light destroyer.

......

If we're looking at a high-end conflict, there is a:
1. a shortage of high-end destroyers
2. a surplus of frigates and corvettes.


Also, remember the cost differences between classes:

1600ton Type-56 Corvette $107M
4000ton Type-54A Frigate $200M
7000ton Type-52D Destroyer $500M
12000ton Type-55 Cruiser $900M

Please don't ruin this thread like you guys did with PLAN Orbat thread. Lets stop the talk altogether until further notice of any info on a new frigate.

 

[Tam]

What i said earlier might actually turn out to be true I'm afraid.

Modern frigates have been functioning as light destroyers for a while, or by WW2 standards, as light cruisers.

To make a 7,000 ton ship, putting and shaping together that iron isn't costly. What's costly is the radars, sensors, electronics and the weapons systems. Especially when you have AESA radars. AESA > PESA > mechanical radars in terms of cost, and also in terms of performance. A larger radar relative to its frequency should have a larger number of elements and modules, and each is $$.

A Type 052D would still be an expensive ship. Never mind the PPP or GDP stuff which only distorts it from the outside, but from the Chinese viewpoint, it must be expensive. Never mind no one knows the actual true costs of the ships. Those four huge AESAs should have a very high cost. Then it uses mechanical radars for the rest, but there is like three of them, or make it four with the VHF array. This ship is no lightweight when it comes to sensors. Its extravagance in this department is only exceeded by the Type 055.

So you make a 5,000 to 6,000 ton ship, slightly smaller than 052D, with more space allocated to carry helicopters and a hanger, not as much VLS as the 052D, or a sensor fit not as extravagant. Would still be using AESA but not as big. Assuming a ship with 32 U-VLS for HQ-9 and future ASW VLS fired YU-11 type, and 8 VLS for YJ-18, two large helicopters and hanger for both, this is kind of like a post 2020 age 051B. Despite the ship nearing the size of a 052D, the bill for it would be much less.

Going to another topic why U-VLS should be preferred over H/AJK-16.

A cruise missile ASW flying torpedo like the YU-11 may occupy more space than a YU-8. Its probably why it was fired from a slant launcher and not from the H/AJK-16. I think something evolved from this is the future for ASW weaponry for the PLAN that will succeed the YU-8. However, because of the size, if this is turned into VLS launched, it would require a larger booster than shown here and this in turn may require the use of the U-VLS. It may not need the 9 meter length ones, just the 7 meter. This can give the 052D and the 055 a boost in their ASW, and can become the ASW weapon for the future frigate.