054/A FFG Thread II
- Thread starter tphuang
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aquauant
Junior Member
Re: China has sent 2 x 054A to the Diaoyu island, according to the Japanese Fuji TV
Why not having 054A or 52C/D for PN? Pakistan can use these ships to protect its supply routes and counter enemy's air naval assets during attacks as well, right?
Why not having 054A or 52C/D for PN? Pakistan can use these ships to protect its supply routes and counter enemy's air naval assets during attacks as well, right?
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Re: China has sent 2 x 054A to the Diaoyu island, according to the Japanese Fuji TV
There is the small matter of budget. The PN does not have the budget of the PLAN or IN, that means it needs to be smart and selective about what they spend their money on.
While 054As and 052Ds would be an awesome addition to the PN, they need adequate support to be at their most effective, but the PN simply cannot afford to buy them in sufficient numbers to do what you are suggesting.
A single ship a fleet does not make, and it would be unwise to invest so much resources into a single ship, or small number of ships that can be easily saturated to death by the enemy. Just think back to the fate of all the German battleships during WWII. Individually, they were as good if not better than anything they faced, but they were always comically outnumbered and were all subsequently overwhelmed or forced to sit out the war in hiding.
The PN is husbanding it's limited resources to get the most for their buck, and that is mainly focused at getting subs, which can operate effectively alone without support, and FFGs and FACs for coastal defense. The smaller FFGs and FACs would rely mainly on their small size and coastal and land based fighters and air defense to stay alive in times of war. To use even on 054A in such a manner would be a waste, never mind an 052D.
The 054A and 052D are blue water fleet escorts, the PN simply lack the resources to compete with India in blue waters, so they are not even trying.
During war time, Pakistan will mainly be relying on it's land routes for supply, especially it's land links with China and other friendly neighbors, and also on the likes of the USN and PLAN stepping in to stop India from indiscriminately targeting civilian shipping. With world shipping the way it is, perhaps the majority of ships that bring goods to and from Pakistani ports are not Pakistani flagged. The IN merely targeting Pakistani flagged ships will not cut Pakistan's sea based trade routes, and I think the likes of the USN and PLAN will have some pretty strong objections if the IN declared a naval exclusion zone that would disrupt the sea based trade of China and America. That is a primary reason why the IN has not tried to do so in past conflicts even though it was probably powerful enough to do it if it really wanted to.
There is the small matter of budget. The PN does not have the budget of the PLAN or IN, that means it needs to be smart and selective about what they spend their money on.
While 054As and 052Ds would be an awesome addition to the PN, they need adequate support to be at their most effective, but the PN simply cannot afford to buy them in sufficient numbers to do what you are suggesting.
A single ship a fleet does not make, and it would be unwise to invest so much resources into a single ship, or small number of ships that can be easily saturated to death by the enemy. Just think back to the fate of all the German battleships during WWII. Individually, they were as good if not better than anything they faced, but they were always comically outnumbered and were all subsequently overwhelmed or forced to sit out the war in hiding.
The PN is husbanding it's limited resources to get the most for their buck, and that is mainly focused at getting subs, which can operate effectively alone without support, and FFGs and FACs for coastal defense. The smaller FFGs and FACs would rely mainly on their small size and coastal and land based fighters and air defense to stay alive in times of war. To use even on 054A in such a manner would be a waste, never mind an 052D.
The 054A and 052D are blue water fleet escorts, the PN simply lack the resources to compete with India in blue waters, so they are not even trying.
During war time, Pakistan will mainly be relying on it's land routes for supply, especially it's land links with China and other friendly neighbors, and also on the likes of the USN and PLAN stepping in to stop India from indiscriminately targeting civilian shipping. With world shipping the way it is, perhaps the majority of ships that bring goods to and from Pakistani ports are not Pakistani flagged. The IN merely targeting Pakistani flagged ships will not cut Pakistan's sea based trade routes, and I think the likes of the USN and PLAN will have some pretty strong objections if the IN declared a naval exclusion zone that would disrupt the sea based trade of China and America. That is a primary reason why the IN has not tried to do so in past conflicts even though it was probably powerful enough to do it if it really wanted to.
asif iqbal
Banned Idiot
Pakistan’s strategy against Indian navy is simple, to locate, engage and destroy any Indian naval ship operating in hostile areas
In that sense Type 054A does not fit into any part of PNs doctrine, even considering a DDG is out of the question, plus to provide a true air defence umbrella is beyond the task of many lone DDGs, something like Type 45 can manage it in a breeze though because its design to operate alone
PN will not use its surface fleet to directly engage IN fleet, that is suicide, PN has shifted to any navy’s biggest threat, the low flying supersonic anti-ship missile, based from land, sea, and air
So it’s no wonder then that the 4 x ZDK-03 AWACS operate from No.4 Squadron from PAF Masroor Karachi which will be joined by a naval squadron of JF17 Thunders equipped with C-802 anti-ship missiles, together they form the central strike force to engage the Indian navy from a distance and are a deadly combination
That means such a squadron with up to 20 aircraft could carry 40 x C802 missiles, even if only 25% get through that is 10 missiles, enough to knock out 3-4 major surface vessels, in war they will be making multiple waves of attacks, where they re-arm and attack again so we can see the effect such a squadron will have on the Indian Navy, and Pakistan’s Naval squadron is one of the most highly trained squadrons experts in surface engagement
If we can station a few JF17 in Oman and make a sweep around the rear of the Indian fleet an angle from where they least expect, equivalent to a land outflanking manoeuvre the effect will be devastating, and if India makes the mistake of attacking civilian areas or civil shipping then PN will also respond, we already have Babur cruise missiles and now we also have air launched land attack cruise missiles which has been tested from Mirage III its called Ra’ad and has 350 km range and is nuclear capable
So this leaves no space for any vessel like Type 054A or Type 052C/D in PN
In that sense Type 054A does not fit into any part of PNs doctrine, even considering a DDG is out of the question, plus to provide a true air defence umbrella is beyond the task of many lone DDGs, something like Type 45 can manage it in a breeze though because its design to operate alone
PN will not use its surface fleet to directly engage IN fleet, that is suicide, PN has shifted to any navy’s biggest threat, the low flying supersonic anti-ship missile, based from land, sea, and air
So it’s no wonder then that the 4 x ZDK-03 AWACS operate from No.4 Squadron from PAF Masroor Karachi which will be joined by a naval squadron of JF17 Thunders equipped with C-802 anti-ship missiles, together they form the central strike force to engage the Indian navy from a distance and are a deadly combination
That means such a squadron with up to 20 aircraft could carry 40 x C802 missiles, even if only 25% get through that is 10 missiles, enough to knock out 3-4 major surface vessels, in war they will be making multiple waves of attacks, where they re-arm and attack again so we can see the effect such a squadron will have on the Indian Navy, and Pakistan’s Naval squadron is one of the most highly trained squadrons experts in surface engagement
If we can station a few JF17 in Oman and make a sweep around the rear of the Indian fleet an angle from where they least expect, equivalent to a land outflanking manoeuvre the effect will be devastating, and if India makes the mistake of attacking civilian areas or civil shipping then PN will also respond, we already have Babur cruise missiles and now we also have air launched land attack cruise missiles which has been tested from Mirage III its called Ra’ad and has 350 km range and is nuclear capable
So this leaves no space for any vessel like Type 054A or Type 052C/D in PN
franco-russe
Senior Member
Nice, this is of course the first picture of LINYI with pennant number. I think it is in Zhanjiang.
This unit, HP 7, is a bit delayed, as it was supposed to commission in September. But now the NSF 1 Destroyer Flotilla 14 Frigate Squadron Qingdao-Jiaonan only has to wait for HD 7 WEIFANG 550, which will not be coming until mid-2013.
(Sorry Jeff, for the changes in 054A names and pt.nos.).
This unit, HP 7, is a bit delayed, as it was supposed to commission in September. But now the NSF 1 Destroyer Flotilla 14 Frigate Squadron Qingdao-Jiaonan only has to wait for HD 7 WEIFANG 550, which will not be coming until mid-2013.
(Sorry Jeff, for the changes in 054A names and pt.nos.).
New Addition For PLAN NSF-The Work Horse
Is this Type 054A number 12 or 13 in service in the PLAN ? Can someone provide me with a list of Type 054A active in the PLAN.
asif iqbal
Banned Idiot
see Jeffs website hes done a good job listing the lot! we dont need to keep reinventing the wheel
franco-russe
Senior Member
547 is Hull 12. This is my list as of today:
In service
1 HP 1 530 XUZHOU
3 HP 2 570 HUANGSHAN
5 HP 3 571 YUNCHENG
7 HP 4 548 YIYANG
9 HP 5 538 YANTAI
11 HP 6 572 HENGSHUI
12 HP 7 547 LINYI
2 HD 1 529 ZHOUSHAN
4 HD 2 568 CHAOHU
6 HD 3 569 YULIN
8 HD 4 549 CHANGZHOU
10 HD 5 546 YANCHENG
Under construction
14 HP 8 574 SHAOYANG
13 HD 6 573 LIUZHOU
15 HD 7 550 WEIFANG
16 HD 8 575 QINZHOU
HD 6 is probably about to commission.
In service
1 HP 1 530 XUZHOU
3 HP 2 570 HUANGSHAN
5 HP 3 571 YUNCHENG
7 HP 4 548 YIYANG
9 HP 5 538 YANTAI
11 HP 6 572 HENGSHUI
12 HP 7 547 LINYI
2 HD 1 529 ZHOUSHAN
4 HD 2 568 CHAOHU
6 HD 3 569 YULIN
8 HD 4 549 CHANGZHOU
10 HD 5 546 YANCHENG
Under construction
14 HP 8 574 SHAOYANG
13 HD 6 573 LIUZHOU
15 HD 7 550 WEIFANG
16 HD 8 575 QINZHOU
HD 6 is probably about to commission.
asif iqbal
Banned Idiot
and just for fun this is how they are fit into fleets
South Sea Fleet
568-571 and 572-575 total 8 x Type 054A FFGs
East Sea Fleet
529-530, 548 and 549 total 4 x Type 054A FFGs
North Sea Fleet
538,546,547 and 550 total 4 x Type 054A FFGs
total of 16 x Type 054A or 4 x Flotillas and ESF also has 2 x Type 054 which are 525 and 526
South Sea Fleet
568-571 and 572-575 total 8 x Type 054A FFGs
East Sea Fleet
529-530, 548 and 549 total 4 x Type 054A FFGs
North Sea Fleet
538,546,547 and 550 total 4 x Type 054A FFGs
total of 16 x Type 054A or 4 x Flotillas and ESF also has 2 x Type 054 which are 525 and 526