00X/004 future nuclear CATOBAR carrier thread

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The late decision to switch from steam to EMALS and the problems with the Fujian island were probably also factors.

We are at 3 carriers now. With the 004 being ready in the next 2-3 years we'd be at 4. There are also quite a lot of rumors that Jiangnan is already working on a conventional (Fuijan sister) carrier. So assuming that's true, we'd already be at 5. Yes, not six but still absolutely amazing production tempo and not completely impossible to achieve 6 around 2036-2038.

Given the observed and expected military procurement rates in the Chinese Navy and Air Force (~twice the US rate), by 2030, I expect the 1IC should be pretty secure.

So weapons system procurement should shift to distant power projection to the 2IC and beyond. That means a lot more aircraft carriers.

My guess is that today, China will simultaneously build a nuclear carrier and also a conventional carrier. So by 2030, there should be mature carrier designs ready for serial production.

So if US-China relations are still bad, I wouldn't be surprised if 4 carriers (from both shipyards) are built between 2030-2035.

That would mean 9 carriers in total in the aforementioned 2036-2038 timeframe

Combined with the Air Force and Missile Force, this would radically change the strategic balance, as China could aim for air-sea superiority to the 2IC and a bit further beyond.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
2028 is still crazy

(as in its implications, not its likelihood)

If they are able to manage a 2028 launch, if they are able to spin up everything sensibly, could entail a 2031 commissioning; in some ways at lower relative readiness than CV-16/17/18 due to using a new propulsion system, but potentially at higher relative readiness in other domains such as maturity of airwing, catapult, deck crew, and virtually all other subsystems.

With the joining of the hull sections, it does look more and more like this may actually be a carrier, at which point we are basically just waiting for hangar sections to be installed to confirm it (or maybe flight deck overhang, or even the island, as definitive confirmations if one wants to be like that).
From there, the matter to confirm is whether this carrier is actually a CVN (which I think can only be properly concluded by structural completion of the aircraft's top side having no smoke stack).... and during all of this, wait to see what JN actually has cooking.
 

TheWanderWit

Junior Member
Registered Member
The late decision to switch from steam to EMALS and the problems with the Fujian island were probably also factors.

We are at 3 carriers now. With the 004 being ready in the next 2-3 years we'd be at 4. There are also quite a lot of rumors that Jiangnan is already working on a conventional (Fuijan sister) carrier. So assuming that's true, we'd already be at 5. Yes, not six but still absolutely amazing production tempo and not completely impossible to achieve 6 around 2036-2038.
There were problems with the Fujian's island during construction?
 

ismellcopium

Junior Member
Registered Member
If they are able to manage a 2028 launch, if they are able to spin up everything sensibly, could entail a 2031 commissioning; in some ways at lower relative readiness than CV-16/17/18 due to using a new propulsion system, but potentially at higher relative readiness in other domains such as maturity of airwing, catapult, deck crew, and virtually all other subsystems.

With the joining of the hull sections, it does look more and more like this may actually be a carrier, at which point we are basically just waiting for hangar sections to be installed to confirm it (or maybe flight deck overhang, or even the island, as definitive confirmations if one wants to be like that).
From there, the matter to confirm is whether this carrier is actually a CVN (which I think can only be properly concluded by structural completion of the aircraft's top side having no smoke stack).... and during all of this, wait to see what JN actually has cooking.
2027 H2 launch seems very possible too imo, & I'd guess being the first nuclear CV notwithstanding, familiarization/time to commissioning probably wouldn't take quite as long as Fujian which was the first non-STOBAR & first EMALS equipped vessel (plus first to introduce J-35, AWACS etc), ie overall leap will be smaller.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Sorry, i'm not that upbeat as to the timescale. Dalian and 004 are late, i don't know why Dalian didn't immediately followed with another carrier after Shandong's launch in 2017. The americans were launching Fords 6 years apart, so even assuming delays caused by covid and an assumed learning curve being a CVN and all, 004 should have been launched by now, 8 years apart from Shandong. Of course, rumours of accelerated 004 construction as of now are great, but still i can't see how the goal of 6 CVs ready by 2035 can be met, at most 5, this assuming Jiangnan will be building another carrier by then.

Because it's not just "building a CVN". It's about building up the entire associated of design and engineering, construction, training, operations, replenishment and maintenance of a full-fledged aircraft carrier fleet, which is a massive undertaking in itself.

The PLAN in the late-2010s is still very much a learner in the fields of aircraft carrier construction and operations. Mind you, Shandong is the first domestically-built aircraft carrier for China. For both the PLAN and Dalian Shipyard (and its associated suppliers), there are massive number of things to analyze, evaluate, infer and diagnose from Shandong's construction work - And that certainly takes some time to complete before being able to feed their inference and results into the design and engineering works for their subsequent aircraft carriers.

And for something as complex as a mobile floating airfield - This certainly takes time.

Plus, unlike Newport News, Dalian does not primarily depend on the PLAN for its income. They do construct plenty of civilian ships (e.g. container ships, bulk carriers, LNG carriers, etc). Moreso, within the time period to build one aircraft carrier, Dalian can build many similar-sized or larger-sized civilian ships. And this means that Dalian can have a steadier stream of income from its civilian shipbuilding side of business.

The above similarly applies to Jiangnan.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Sorry, i'm not that upbeat as to the timescale. Dalian and 004 are late, i don't know why Dalian didn't immediately followed with another carrier after Shandong's launch in 2017.

Unless you wanted Dalian to immediately follow up with another STOBAR carrier after launching CV-17 (which imo would be a waste of personnel and shipbuilding resources), they had basically no option but to wait until CV-18 was relatively far along to verify that vital CATOBAR technologies were actually mature.


The americans were launching Fords 6 years apart, so even assuming delays caused by covid and an assumed learning curve being a CVN and all, 004 should have been launched by now, 8 years apart from Shandong.

Remember that CV-17 Shandong was launched in 2017, when they had only been operating Liaoning for half a decade and Shandong was the first ever carrier the entire country had built.

Putting it another way, assuming one wanted CATOBAR CVN, then between the launch of CV-17 and signing off on construction of a CATOBAR CVN, they would need to have first verified:
- the strategic environment is suitable for continued procurement of carriers (geostrategic changes, technological changes meant that there was every possibility that further carrier procurement might not be appropriate for the PLA)
- they had the requisite funding for all of the steps needed to reach a CVN (again, far from guaranteed)
- they were able to verify that CV-17 itself was able to work and function and Dalian's work was up to par
- they had to verify that key CATOBAR subsystems (like EM catapult), and the key CATOBAR airwing (J-35, J-15T, KJ-600) were actually mature and ready... remember at the time that CV-17 was launched, none of those three aircraft had even had their first prototype fly, let alone enter service
- they had to develop and verify the maturity and readiness of the nuclear propulsion drive train
- and then after all of that is done, they need to actually design and develop the thing and ensure that the shipyard is appropriately tooled up to build it, and finally verify that buying a CATOBAR CVN still makes sense for them by the time all the prior steps were done

So, based on the above, how on earth could Dalian have "immediately followed up" the launch of CV-17 in 2017, with another carrier, especially if it's a proper CATOBAR CVN?

The only way Dalian could have immediately followed up CV-17 with another carrier is if they built another STOBAR carrier, and such a procurement decision would have been nonsensical.


If you want to talk about the US launch cadence of Fords class carriers, perhaps consider reminding yourself of the size and longevity of the USN's CVN fleet size and airwing at that stage, and US shipbuilding and associated industry experience in building CVNs overall, whereas the PRC was starting from scratch in every domain -- heck they were basically starting from scratch in building STOBAR CVs, let alone CVNs.

You really must be rather new to PLA watching, because any of us that observed and witnessed the PLA's carrier journey from Varyag's rebuild to Liaoning, then the emergence and launch of CV-17 Shandong, and then the gradual rumours and pictures of CV-18 Fujian, can tell you just how laughable your idea is. The technological and industry barriers they had to get through between then and now (20 years virtually on the dot) is immense, not to mention the organizational requirements of actually getting all of the ducks in a row.

If anything the speed that they've progressed from operating their first ever carrier, building their first ever carrier, building their first ever CATOBAR, and now possibly building their first potential CVN, has been downright fast considering they've had to go it all alone.




Of course, rumours of accelerated 004 construction as of now are great, but still i can't see how the goal of 6 CVs ready by 2035 can be met, at most 5, this assuming Jiangnan will be building another carrier by then.

Why do you have that number in mind in the first place?
 
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ENTED64

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeah I mean I think PLAN watchers over the last few years have been spoiled because they were in the dumpling making phase for a lot of surface combatants. We saw PLAN build a large number of 052D and 055 in a short period. However if you consider the entire timeline, this dumpling making phase was proceeded by an extended experimentation and validation phase where progress was much slower during the early to mid 2010s. In other words mass production was only possible after a long delay to ensure all technologies were mature and conditions were appropriate. We similarly saw very slow progress in SSNs until only the last 2-3 years when large scale 093B production appeared.

PLAN carrier timeline is just behind the surface combatant and SSN timelines and this was probably inevitable as it is a more complex field that PLAN had basically no legacy experience with unlike with destroys and subs which they've been using for much longer. They're still in the experimentation and validation phase where visual progress like number of hulls under construction or being commissioned is much slower. There's no way around this, things take time. Once the CVN is fully verified and the PLAN is satisfied, assuming there aren't geopolitical or technological changes, we will probably see a faster tempo of CVN construction but that will be 2030s so until then we'll just have to wait.
 

SINCHIKI

New Member
Registered Member
Given the observed and expected military procurement rates in the Chinese Navy and Air Force (~twice the US rate), by 2030, I expect the 1IC should be pretty secure.

So weapons system procurement should shift to distant power projection to the 2IC and beyond. That means a lot more aircraft carriers.

My guess is that today, China will simultaneously build a nuclear carrier and also a conventional carrier. So by 2030, there should be mature carrier designs ready for serial production.

So if US-China relations are still bad, I wouldn't be surprised if 4 carriers (from both shipyards) are built between 2030-2035.

That would mean 9 carriers in total in the aforementioned 2036-2038 timeframe

Combined with the Air Force and Missile Force, this would radically change the strategic balance, as China could aim for air-sea superiority to the 2IC and a bit further beyond.
I've been wondering about something. The first carrier Liaoning carries hull number 016, while the first Type 075 LHD is numbered 031. Since there are no other ship classes in between, could it be that hull numbers 016 through 030 are all reserved for aircraft carriers?
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
Yeah I mean I think PLAN watchers over the last few years have been spoiled because they were in the dumpling making phase for a lot of surface combatants. We saw PLAN build a large number of 052D and 055 in a short period. However if you consider the entire timeline, this dumpling making phase was proceeded by an extended experimentation and validation phase where progress was much slower during the early to mid 2010s. In other words mass production was only possible after a long delay to ensure all technologies were mature and conditions were appropriate. We similarly saw very slow progress in SSNs until only the last 2-3 years when large scale 093B production appeared.

PLAN carrier timeline is just behind the surface combatant and SSN timelines and this was probably inevitable as it is a more complex field that PLAN had basically no legacy experience with unlike with destroys and subs which they've been using for much longer. They're still in the experimentation and validation phase where visual progress like number of hulls under construction or being commissioned is much slower. There's no way around this, things take time. Once the CVN is fully verified and the PLAN is satisfied, assuming there aren't geopolitical or technological changes, we will probably see a faster tempo of CVN construction but that will be 2030s so until then we'll just have to wait.
That's right. Let's not forget what preceded the dumpling phase. 052, 052B, 52C followed the "small steps, quick pace" mantra, with each taking big steps forward in tech and none built in large numbers, until finally the 052D came about.
 

lcloo

Major
I've been wondering about something. The first carrier Liaoning carries hull number 016, while the first Type 075 LHD is numbered 031. Since there are no other ship classes in between, could it be that hull numbers 016 through 030 are all reserved for aircraft carriers?
Aircraft carriers are allocated pennant numbers 01X, but there is no suggestions that pennant numbers 02X will be allocated to any class of surface warships.

01X has ten allocations, #010 to #015, and #019 have not yet been taken up.
 
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