Striker or Interceptor? Assessing commentary on J-20's role

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
There is an obvious clue that J-20 isn't a dedicated striker as Western analysts like to claim. That clue is F-22. F-22 represents the biggest threat to China's ability to maintain air superiority. Without air superiority, talk of surface strike is meaningless. So there is no sense for China to build yet another class of dedicate striker knowing it cannot be protected from the F-22. Furthermore, if F-22 could wipe the floor in a confrontation with China as Western media like to boast, then it is imperative for China to have a counter. That counter cannot be in the form of cumbersome surface strike aircraft.

I will not go through the same points that have already been addressed by other posters. Instead, I will focus on the stealth angle, which I believe others have missed. I remember in the very early days, before 2001 first flew, that this picture appeared on Chinese BBS:
7CpS58u.jpg

Bill Sweetman promptly used it as a proof to claim that J-20 isn't stealthy, arguing that the wing's trailing edges are not swept. In fact, I managed to dig up exactly what he said:


I would like to challenge the reader to re-see what Bill Sweetman saw. The ironic thing is, many on Chinese BBS were wondering whether the wing's trailing edge is swept, and that specific picture was posted by a wall climber to show that the answer being "unequivocally yes". Clearly, we have an example of Western analysts forming conclusion first then looking for premises later. We can also conclude Bill Sweetman's analysis is a joke, and not the kind that's supposed to be funny.

Another claim critics like to use is "canard is unstealthy", which gets repeated as if the-Earth-is-round whenever a discussion on J-20 comes up. Not once did I see someone backs up this claim with an actual study. What's more, proposals submitted for ATF (what eventually led to F-22) and JSF (what eventually led to F-35) included stealth designs featuring canard. If critics' claim is true, one must wonder why such glaring error of putting canard on a stealth designs would be missed by seasoned aircraft designers. Of course, the claim can't be true, because the X-36 technology demonstrator features canard, and was praised as a very stealthy design.

Finally, critics like to point at J-20's engine nozzles and proclaim "J-20 doesn't have all aspect stealth", while praising F-22 nozzles as the de-facto stealth design. In reality, the F-22 nozzles don't make the plane stealthy from the rear. Let's look at an illustration. Here we have a picture of F-22 on afterburners:
vXJ0wsU.jpg


We know the afterburners are on because we can see the flame. The flame is held by flame holders, so what we are looking at is the flame holders themselves. One important thing to know about them is that they are concave, so as to shield the flame from very fast moving exhaust. Here, one can see the flame holders in the nozzle of a F-22, with about sixteen of them in each engine:
r21dGky.jpg


Needless to say, the requirement to hold the flame precludes the assembly from being stealthy. Then, there are the turbines sitting in front of the flame holders, with all sort of voids to bounce radar signal in an uncontrollable fashion. The fan at the front of the engine has the same problem, but engineers meticulously designed the intake duct so as to hide the engine from view, as illustrated:
6q8JUO6.jpg


It is hard to appreciate the design, and the amount of work in coming up with such design, until one looks at the intake duct before its installation:
sA84KBM.jpg


So, the notion that F-22 styled nozzles give the aircraft all-aspect stealth is flawed, simply because hiding the engine from view clearly involves way more effort than just making the exhaust rectangular or adding sawtooth to the exhaust petals.

In short, for the each issue raised regarding J-20's deficit in stealthiness, there is a counter-example showing it not to be an issue at all. We can conclude that, as far as stealth is concerned, Western analysts' criticisms of the J-20 do not come form an engineering point of view.

I think F-22 nozzles are designed primarily for IR suppression.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
they are designed for radar and IR suppression, you like it or not the F-22 has the stealthiest nozzles on 5th generation fighters with the exception of the F-117, the rest are not stealthy at the same level in that you include the F-35, J-20, T-50 and J-31.

From an engineering standpoint, there is always tradeoff involved and frankly, I am not sure whether the IR/Radar suppression is worth the extra weight.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
they are designed for radar and IR suppression, you like it or not the F-22 has the stealthiest nozzles on 5th generation fighters with the exception of the F-117, the rest are not stealthy at the same level in that you include the F-35, J-20, T-50 and J-31.


I think YF-23 is generally accepted to have the most stealthy nozzles in both IR and RF.

But what engineer is saying is that even F-22 or YF-23s nozzles do not necessarily make them "all aspect stealth" (in the RF domain) because any aircraft from the posterior aspect will still be able to get returns due to the inside of the engine itself.

I don't think anyone is necessarily disputing that F-22 has the stealthiest nozzle of current fighters in service, but using that benchmark to define and claim all aspect stealth should be something that can be challenged
 

b787

Captain
I think YF-23 is generally accepted to have the most stealthy nozzles in both IR and RF.

But what engineer is saying is that even F-22 or YF-23s nozzles do not necessarily make them "all aspect stealth" (in the RF domain) because any aircraft from the posterior aspect will still be able to get returns due to the inside of the engine itself.

I don't think anyone is necessarily disputing that F-22 has the stealthiest nozzle of current fighters in service, but using that benchmark to define and claim all aspect stealth should be something that can be challenged
The F-22 has the best trade off a fighter can have in its rear hemisphere, it has low IR combined with Thrust vectoring, true YF-23 was stealthier but it lacked thrust vectoring.

J-20 is not a pure interceptor, neither a pure air superiority, it will be multirole in my humble opinion.

Interceptors are in the class of MiG-31 or Tu-128, large and fast, but nowadays aircraft are very expensive, the F-22 has been a dedicated air superiority simply because it has no rival and the USAF has plenty of F-15Es and F-16s that can by themselves counter the Su-27s and MiG-29s of Russia or the fighters China has.


Niether Russia or China have stealth aircraft in numbers to force the USAF`s F-22 turn into multirole.


The J-20 will operate when all the Chinese MiG-21/J-7s are gone so China will rely on J-10s which are in the class of the F-16 and Russia will rely in few Su-35s in the class of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

If everything goes well China will have 200 J-20s by 2035, but by that time the Chinese air force will shrink, thus JH-7s are not going to be able to through S-400 and even less S-500s, the J-20 is like the Flanker, large it can be customized to different roles from attack aircraft, long range interceptor to light weight air superiority.

So not even the J-10s will survive the new SAMs systems, so for China the J-20 has the physical traits for a good attack aircraft, the americans knew this so they tried the F-35 and the Russians know that too, the J-20 can be armed with external weapons stores and hardpoints like PAKFA or F-35.


The only possibility it will remain a pure fighter is China builds a third stealth fighter like a modern F-111, Russia went for the Su-34, knowing the PAKFA will first act stealthy, later with external stores and after that Su-34 can attack.

The Americans will use firs F-22s and F-35s in stealth mode, but remember the USAF has close to 400 F-35s and F-22 now ni 2015 plus plenty of F-15s and F-16s and B-1Bs

So everything will depend in which aircraft are available when J-20 enters service
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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The F-22 has the best trade off a fighter can have in its rear hemisphere, it has low IR combined with Thrust vectoring, true YF-23 was stealthier but it lacked thrust vectoring.

The question isn't about F-22's tradeoffs so much as whether its rear hemisphere can really be called "all aspect" stealth.


J-20 is not a pure interceptor, neither a pure air superiority, it will be multirole in my humble opinion.

All modern fighter aircraft are multirole by nature, and in my paper I describe J-20 as a general air superiority fighter capable of interception and strike.

Interceptors are in the class of MiG-31 or Tu-128, large and fast, but nowadays aircraft are very expensive, the F-22 has been a dedicated air superiority simply because it has no rival and the USAF has plenty of F-15Es and F-16s that can by themselves counter the Su-27s and MiG-29s of Russia or the fighters China has.


Niether Russia or China have stealth aircraft in numbers to force the USAF`s F-22 turn into multirole.

F-22 today is being used as a multirole fighter by virtue of stealthy strike, and as a forward ISR platform. Of course it is also used in interception duties as well.


The J-20 will operate when all the Chinese MiG-21/J-7s are gone so China will rely on J-10s which are in the class of the F-16 and Russia will rely in few Su-35s in the class of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

If everything goes well China will have 200 J-20s by 2035, but by that time the Chinese air force will shrink, thus JH-7s are not going to be able to through S-400 and even less S-500s, the J-20 is like the Flanker, large it can be customized to different roles from attack aircraft, long range interceptor to light weight air superiority.

So not even the J-10s will survive the new SAMs systems, so for China the J-20 has the physical traits for a good attack aircraft, the americans knew this so they tried the F-35 and the Russians know that too, the J-20 can be armed with external weapons stores and hardpoints like PAKFA or F-35.

A J-20 armed with external weapons will not be substantially more survivable than a non stealthy aircraft.
The fact that it lacks a large internal weapons bay means any stealthy strike role will be limited similar to that of F-22; only glide bombs and SDBs and small powered weapons, no true stand off weapons or heavy stand off weapons.

T-50's weapons bay is far better suited for the strike role given its expected deeper weapons bay.


The only possibility it will remain a pure fighter is China builds a third stealth fighter like a modern F-111, Russia went for the Su-34, knowing the PAKFA will first act stealthy, later with external stores and after that Su-34 can attack.

J-20 will be no more of a "pure fighter" (whatever that means) anymore than an F-22 will be.

J-20, F-22, T-50, will all be capable of air superiority, interception, and strike, among other roles and will not be limited to only one or two of those roles. Their respective efficacy in each role may differ slightly (for instance T-50 with a deeper weapons bay may be a better striker) but how much better or worse each is in each category or parameter is not something we can really properly judge.


The Americans will use firs F-22s and F-35s in stealth mode, but remember the USAF has close to 400 F-35s and F-22 now ni 2015 plus plenty of F-15s and F-16s and B-1Bs

So everything will depend in which aircraft are available when J-20 enters service


I feel like you are drawing a few too many conclusions on dubious evidence and logic.
I've listed a few above in previous parts of my reply.
I also think you are comparing the roles of the aircraft based on the force structure of the air forces as they move through time rather than the capability of the aircraft and the opposing capability the aircraft may face.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Good Morning Engineer, the statement that Mr. Sweetman made is that the trailing edge is "almost unswept", while I disagree with lots of what Mr Sweetman says, I would agree with him that the trailing edge is very "lightly swept", but I certainly wouldn't criticize the design of the J-20, and I agree that it is likely very stealthy.

While I am sure some western analysts have and will continue to make inaccurate statements about J-20, those same people continue to make inaccurate statements about the F-22, and F-35, but we have many fine analysts who work for the military and defense contractors, who are not heard out there on the WWW, and if they publish it would be in AFM or other similar journals??? not in an entertainment magazine?

For the record I would assert that western analysts who are professionally employed have allowed us to be well prepared to counter likely threats, that in fact many of those people are engineers or at least have a fine understanding of the field, for the proof of that, I would submit the F-22, just as you have sir.

and good morning indeed, it is, and glad to hear from you, thanks for your many fine observations, I am thinking that you are likely correct that J-20 will not have OVT. Is that in fact an accurate assessment of your thoughts?? or do you think at some point they will in fact incorporate OVT???
 

b787

Captain
A J-20 armed with external weapons will not be substantially more survivable than a non stealthy aircraft.
The fact that it lacks a large internal weapons bay means any stealthy strike role will be limited similar to that of F-22; only glide bombs and SDBs and small powered weapons, no true stand off weapons or heavy stand off weapons.

T-50's weapons bay is far better suited for the strike role given its expected deeper weapons bay.




J-20 will be no more of a "pure fighter" (whatever that means) anymore than an F-22 will be.

J-20, F-22, T-50, will all be capable of air superiority, interception, and strike, among other roles and will not be limited to only one or two of those roles. Their respective efficacy in each role may differ slightly (for instance T-50 with a deeper weapons bay may be a better striker) but how much better or worse each is in each category or parameter is not something we can really properly judge.


I feel like you are drawing a few too many conclusions on dubious evidence and logic.
I've listed a few above in previous parts of my reply.
I also think you are comparing the roles of the aircraft based on the force structure of the air forces as they move through time rather than the capability of the aircraft and the opposing capability the aircraft may face.
I said my humble opinion but i can tell you that J-20 is large, and it is much larger than the F-22, i do not know if it is lighter, but larger it is, the F-22 has a small airframe, it looks big because its tail extends far aft the nozzles.

Western commentators said the J-20 looks an attack aircraft because its airframe and fuselage is larger than the F-22s.

Large aircraft like Su-27 can be modified into strike aircraft, J-20 surely can be used like a fighter, but it still lacks the stuff F-22 and T-50 have in terms of engine without their engines both aircraft are not that good, they fly on their engines.

The F-22 and T-50 are good mostly because of their engine, they are aircraft highly compromised by stealth requirements.

I do not know how maneuverable J-20 is, i do not know that, but today with new advanced missiles you do not need to be so agile, Python 5 is a good example that is the philosophy behind the F-35.

However being a large aircraft it will be a good striker, perhaps it is also very maneuverable and quick, but most western commentators know the jet has its engines very likely behind the weapons bays and the intake ducts are not that big the J-20 i am sure it is thought and designed to carry some types of attack missiles.
 

vesicles

Colonel
What is with this fixation on the size of the J-20?? I thought many posters have presented convincing evidence that the J-20 is actually smaller than the Sukhoi family fighters (in satelite images where the J-20 sat side-by-side with other fighters including Sukhois), which have been thought to be some of the most agile fighters known to man. So size does not matter. And the current engine used by the J-20 is at least the same engine used by most of the Sukhoi fighters, again known to be very agile even with "less advanced engines". Some speculated that the J-20 might be using a highly modified version of the AL-31 engine. So let's drop the "size" / "engine" argument!

Let's also be clear that no one should be comparing the J-20 with either the F-22 or the T-50. There is simply no evidence whatsoever for anyone to compare. I don't think even the best experts in the world can do that comparison because no one in the world has the complete data on ALL 3 fighters. The only thing that most of the "non-anti-J-20" people are proposing is that there is no evidence to suggest the J-20 would be a dedicated striker/interceptor. That is all. The only thing that we can conclude from the available evidence is that the J-20 is a 5th gen stealth fighter. From what we know about how the PLA works, we can speculate with confidence that the J-20 should be a highly effective stealth fighter, based on how confident the PLA is about the J-20. We all know that the PLA is very careful/conservative about their weapons development. They will not let it roll out unless they are satisfied with their products. And we all know that they set a very bar for their new weapons because of their ambition and goals. And their past track record is consistent with this view. That is all we know.

With regard to whether different fighter lay-out could affect its stealth, I suggest that we give the Chinese fighter designers some benefit of the doubt. They should know better than most of us the armchair fighter designers. If they decided to stick with the current design after decades of research and development and billions of $$$ invested in the development, they should know what they are doing. At least they should have a better idea than most of us armchair fighter designers.
 
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