South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

shen

Senior Member
Actually many in the CIA and defense department thinks like him, it's just outside of their realm is when fantasy and fan boys war chest thumbing from all walks of life gets pretty nasty and lame. This includes the so called professional journalism.

Both US and China must confront the enemies of peace within their respective countries. Non-Chinese speakers may not understand how intense the debate within China is at times. I watched a Chinese talk show awhile ago, a Chinese diplomat debating a rather hawkish Chinese military officer. The old diplomat basically won, but that debate is more intense than anything I've seen on US TV. In contrast American public debates seem to be more govern by a dominant establishment narrative at any given time.
We live in dangerous times. Moderates in all countries can't afford to be not radical in their moderation.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
It takes real courage for Prof. Goldstein to write this clearheaded piece in the current political climate. Just a couple of weeks ago, an American admiral was publicly called a traitor for suggesting that the US and China can cooperate.
As a matter of fact, Professor Goldstein hinted at being unpopular with some of this colleagues and with some military officers. You could see that in the Youtube video at the 1:10 mark, and at several other points. I'm almost done reading his book, Meeting China Half Way, and it's a straightforward, well-argued book with tough give-and-take for both Washington and Beijing. I appreciate Goldstein's balanced views and his ability to put himself in the other guy's shoes. One example of that is he reminds skeptical admirals to consider how Americans would feel if Chinese gun boats patrolled the Mississippi River from 1850s to 1949. His view is even if Chinese actions are objectionable to current US strategic outlook, Americans can't really understand China's point of view if they don't try and learn China's history with the West, and seriously address China's concerns.

 

shen

Senior Member
As a matter of fact, Professor Goldstein hinted at being unpopular with some of this colleagues and with some military officers. You could see that in the Youtube video at the 1:10 mark, and at several other points. I'm almost done reading his book, Meeting China Half Way, and it's a straightforward, well-argued book with tough give-and-take for both Washington and Beijing. I appreciate Goldstein's balanced views and his ability to put himself in the other guy's shoes. One example of that is he reminds skeptical admirals to consider how Americans would feel if Chinese gun boats patrolled the Mississippi River from 1850s to 1949. His view is even if Chinese actions are objectionable to current US strategic outlook, Americans can't really understand China's point of view if they don't try and learn China's history with the West, and seriously address China's concerns.


thank you for the video. I'll watch it and hopefully reply with knowledge later.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Here's a typical Beltway pundit on "get tough with China," and sadly, I've come to the conclusion these people simply don't appreciate how serious Beijing is about de facto control of the South China Sea.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Over roughly the past two years, China has
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to build up and assert greater control over disputed islands and land features. While intended to advance China’s de facto control of the South China Sea and enhance its strategic position in the contested waters, in reality, Beijing’s machinations are equally likely to be both tactical and strategic errors.

At a moment when China is launching initiatives like the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank to foster regional development and cultivate goodwill, its South China Sea policy creates new sources of friction and undermines its position in Southeast Asia. Yet, despite promulgating tensions throughout the region, China could unilaterally define the region’s trajectory, as ASEAN remains divided and uncertain of the way forward on the South China Sea. Ultimately, it is incumbent on international and regional partners, like the United States, to provide Southeast Asian states with strategic diversity in their diplomatic, economic, and security engagements, so that they have the confidence to resist coercive actions and help advance a rules-based order in the Asia-Pacific region.

At the tactical level, the reclaimed disputed islands are likely to serve as festering sores in China’s bilateral relationships with other South China Sea claimants, contributing to a volatile environment that could flare up at any moment. As an example, while China militarily gained full control of the Paracel Islands in 1974 from Vietnam, Hanoi does not recognize that claim.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. There is little reason to believe that the newly built-up features will not face similar harassment from rival claimants and serve as perennial sources of bilateral friction. Particularly if China militarizes the disputed features and attempts to unilaterally enforce its will or restrict access (such as through an
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
), we can likely expect neighbors to respond with low-level challenges (like fishing vessel incursions or passive defiance of China-imposed mandates, such as ignoring its annual fishing ban), which in turn could quickly escalate.

China’s military and maritime build-up, and indications of how Beijing intends to employ its increasing power, are driving a number of regional states to increase their own defense spending. There is a clear recognition that Japan’s superior defense capabilities (and alliance with the United States) allowed it to much more effectively face down PRC pressure over the disputed Senkaku Islands. The Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Singapore and Brunei are each pursuing enhanced maritime capabilities, spurring a nascent regional arms race. While these countries are unable to compete with China’s forces on a one-to-one basis, new acquisitions in submarines, anti-submarine helicopters, fighters, and advanced patrol vessels can raise the potential risk and costs of Chinese action (mirroring China’s own Anti-Access/Area Denial approach vis-à-vis the United States).

Strategically, China’s activities are raising profound questions across the region of the type of rising power it will be. During an earlier regional charm offensive, China entered in a landmark agreement with ASEAN to diffuse tensions and prevent a land grab for the disputed islands. Signed in 2002, the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
forbids the types of land reclamation and military build-up China is now undertaking. Now we witness China’s disregard for this important commitment, and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
on important questions for the institution. With the accumulated track record of behavior, the threat perception of China is rising and regional countries are actively questioning the extent to which they can trust Beijing.

To be clear, each country in Asia seeks a positive and stable relationship with China. China’s economy and rising middle class offers tremendous opportunities, Beijing-driven financing programs can help to drive regional infrastructure development and integration, and there are strong cultural and people-to-people connections. However, these elements are not enough to form the sorts of enduring relationships and alliances that a great power requires for international success – including a friendly periphery coupled with burden-sharing partners. Given the trust deficit with China, regional states are limiting areas of sensitive cooperation and seeking a strategic diversity in their engagement to serve as a potential hedge against unilateral Chinese actions.

It’s remarkable to review Southeast Asia just five years ago in comparison to today. Earlier into his term, Philippines President Benigno Aquino sought to improve ties with China, but
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and the stand-off in the Scarborough Shoal reoriented Philippines foreign policy. Now, a U.S.-Philippines Enhanced Defense Cooperation Agreement – currently pending in the Philippines Supreme Court – will open the door for the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Before, elements of Vietnam’s government remained deeply distrustful of the United States, favoring closer ties with China to secure its future. After numerous incidents in the South China Sea, including China’s deployment of its
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
which helped to crystallize the issue, there is now broad consensus across political actors in Hanoi on the need to diversify regional ties towards a closer working relationship with the United States. Since then, the United States has
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to support maritime capacity development and the Communist Party General Secretary had a wide-ranging meeting with President Obama in the Oval Office, signaling buy-in from the Vietnamese political element traditionally most aligned with China.

Beyond the immediate maritime claimants, there has been a shift. Five years ago, the heavily sanctioned country of Myanmar was viewed by many as virtually a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
given China’s protection via the UN Security Council and deep economic linkages. Now, Myanmar has signaled concerns about
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and, pending the November 8 national election results, we may see a full normalization of relations with the United States. The regional exemption that proves the rule may be Thailand, where a military coup has stymied relations with the United States and offered China a window for
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Even in this case, however, the junta in Bangkok deeply desires U.S. contact and validation.

It is imperative for the United States, and regional actors like Japan, Australia, South Korea, India, and Europe to be committed and engaged partners to Southeast Asia and ASEAN so that its member states do not feel compelled to accept China’s unilateral terms for the region. While the United States seeks good bilateral relations with China and cooperates on a range of issues, from Iran to climate change, it is essential to publicly and privately call out assertive and disruptive behavior by all parties in order to reinforce regional rules and norms while reassuring others in the region about U.S. focus and commitment.

Recognizing the tangible and psychological impact of China’s South China Sea build-up, the United States and other partners should seek to launch and enhance new bilateral and multilateral mechanisms in Southeast Asia that provide added weight to diplomacy. Links like strategic partnerships, military rotations and capacity building activities, trade agreements, intelligence sharing, and trilateral/multilateral mechanisms provide an element of “
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
” to diplomatic relations, giving regional states the confidence to reject coercion and providing a counter-weight to the physical force projection embodied by China’s land reclamation.
 

shen

Senior Member
As a matter of fact, Professor Goldstein hinted at being unpopular with some of this colleagues and with some military officers. You could see that in the Youtube video at the 1:10 mark, and at several other points. I'm almost done reading his book, Meeting China Half Way, and it's a straightforward, well-argued book with tough give-and-take for both Washington and Beijing. I appreciate Goldstein's balanced views and his ability to put himself in the other guy's shoes. One example of that is he reminds skeptical admirals to consider how Americans would feel if Chinese gun boats patrolled the Mississippi River from 1850s to 1949. His view is even if Chinese actions are objectionable to current US strategic outlook, Americans can't really understand China's point of view if they don't try and learn China's history with the West, and seriously address China's concerns.


Well, this guy is actually proficient in Chinese, can read the primary sources and spent years learning about his subject. That's more than can be said about the majority of American public figures talking about China these days. In the other SCS thread, I linked another video of an American diplomat talking about the problems with American foreign policy. One is that today everybody at the policy level are political appointees with no background in diplomacy. Therefore there is no direction to American foreign policy at all, just following the whim of political climate at the time.
Goldstein's idea of confidence building spirals sounds excellent, but unlikely to get the attention it deserve in the current political climate.

One specific issue Goldstein talks about is American intelligence ferret missions in SCS and along Chinese coast in general. These missions are essentially mock attacks designed to elicit defensive responses from the target. I encourage everybody to read up about how dangerous these missions are, not just to the military persons involved, but also also the civilian airliners in the area. They are happening on an almost daily basis. The sharp rise of these mission flown against China is not due to any genius national security requirement, but rather after the fall of the Soviet Union the US military have these assets but no other ways to use them. Goldstein talks about the dangers of these frequent missions, how they destabilizing they are to Sino-US relations, and there are safer alternatives that can gather the same intelligence.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Well, this guy is actually proficient in Chinese, can read the primary sources and spent years learning about his subject. That's more than can be said about the majority of American public figures talking about China these days. In the other SCS thread, I linked another video of an American diplomat talking about the problems with American foreign policy. One is that today everybody at the policy level are political appointees with no background in diplomacy. Therefore there is no direction to American foreign policy at all, just following the whim of political climate at the time.
Goldstein's idea of confidence building spirals sounds excellent, but unlikely to get the attention it deserve in the current political climate.

One specific issue Goldstein talks about is American intelligence ferret missions in SCS and along Chinese coast in general. These missions are essentially mock attacks designed to elicit defensive responses from the target. I encourage everybody to read up about how dangerous these missions are, not just to the military persons involved, but also also the civilian airliners in the area. They are happening on an almost daily basis. The sharp rise of these mission flown against China is not due to any genius national security requirement, but rather after the fall of the Soviet Union the US military have these assets but no other ways to use them. Goldstein talks about the dangers of these frequent missions, how they destabilizing they are to Sino-US relations, and there are safer alternatives that can gather the same intelligence.

It is as hilarious as it is amusing that the west often "fret" about whether the Chinese leadership has control over the PLA, while it is the American military, and their supporters in industry (and the politicians these corporations own) that is the tail wagging the dog.

The US military's determination to justify their continued super-sized budgets means they are actively looking for the next USSR, as most American military and intelligence officers harbour a strong longing to get back to the "good old times" of the Cold War.

That means that in the absence or real dangers and threats, American interests groups have shown a tendency to enhance or downright manufacture conflicts through unwarrantedly aggressive and provocative deployments and manoeuvres against powers capable of assuming the mantle of USSR 2.0, namely China and Russia on the one hand, and continued military misadventures in the Middle East on the other.

These developments are no doubt adding a lot to the profits of arms manufacturers (who do you think makes all the bombs and missiles the US and allies drops, and who do you think all those countries "concerned" about Russian or Chinese "assertiveness" turns to for arms?), who pass on a cut to politicians who helped facilitate these events through the legalised bribery mechanisms of campaign financing. But it is the American and friendly countries' taxpayers who's pockets all this money is coming out of, and it is America and the world that suffers.

America loves to take peace and stability, but there are powerful and vast vested interests with reach deep into the American Government, military, media and intelligence agencies that thrive and indeed survive on conflict and strife.

America really needs to get its house in order so that its actions matches the aims of what their leaders states.
 

Brumby

Major
Navy will challenge Chinese territorial claims in South China Sea

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The Navy is preparing to send a surface ship inside the12-nautical-mile territorial limit China claims for its man-made island chain, an action that could take place within days but awaits final approval from the Obama administration, according to military officials who spoke to Navy Times.
 

Zool

Junior Member
I had heard a little over a month ago now, that this was something USPACOM had wanted to do but had been told no by the administration. So I'm not sure if this is a rehash of that, or if the green light has been given. My guess is it's a rehash.

Now if the USN were to sail straight through innocently enough then no harm no foul legally. Even so, the Chinese media could put up a map of the region indicating the ships passage and question the need for a provocative course through that 12nm when so much empty ocean is evidently available. In that sense China could use the event as cause to further it's plans -- be it additional development work or installation of defensive systems. Lot's to consider in all of this.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
There are plenty of ways China could push back if America was to be needlessly and pointlessly confrontational, and America knows that.

That is why the White House is holding back while the military is desperate to push ahead.

It is in the American military and arms manufacturers' best interests to create and increase tensions to help the military justify their bloated budgets and for the arms makers to push weapons on "threatened" allies, at fat profit margins of course.

If the USN does make a habit of sailing within 12NM of China's new islands, maybe China will decide it wants to create some new artificial reefs to offset the environmental impact of its island building, and pass an endangered species habitable protection law forbidding ships from sailing within, say 1nm of protected habitat.

Sink a few hundred old ships 2 NM apart, evenly within 12 NM of their new islands, and give every single wreck protected habitat status.

Next time the USN sails within 12NM of the islands, issue them a fine for breaking Chinese endangered species protection laws in China's EEZ.
 
Top