South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Aughhh, you may be able to construct ships in a short period of time BUT training sailors is the hard part. You can't cookie cut sailors that fast resulting to many unseasoned sailors unprepared to do their assignments. This is more so with officers.

Then it's a good thing that the Chinese Navy has a vast pool of already trained manpower from a large number of older ships, smaller ships or the coast guard.

There are already 80 Patrol boats (Type-22 ) plus 60 corvettes (Type-37/56) alone with full crews.

Simply promote the best personnel from these vessels to the new ships as they come online.

And in any case, even a brand new crew should know what to do after 2 years.

We saw this in the vast naval expansions that occurred during WW2 with the USN, Royal Navy and Imperial Japanese Navy
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
I agree that it is in China's long term interest to expand its current interpretation of freedom of navigation from innocent passage to also encompass military activities.

But that will only come once China has a much larger navy, and the long-term trend likely means China will also build the world's largest navy to protect its global trade and investments. Remember China is already the world's largest trading nation and largest net overseas investor.
We agree on this portion of your retort to my post.

There's also a video on youtube from Kishore Mabbubani who was speaking at Harvard, where he warns that the US military is teaching the Chinese that it is ok to run spy patrols and conduct simulated attack runs on the Chinese coast under the name of freedom of navigation.

And is that really the way the US wants China to behave in the future towards Hawaii and California?
That's a long ways off and an interesting discussion for another time.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Then it's a good thing that the Chinese Navy has a vast pool of already trained manpower from a large number of older ships, smaller ships or the coast guard.

There are already 80 Patrol boats (Type-22 ) plus 60 corvettes (Type-37/56) alone with full crews.

Simply promote the best personnel from these vessels to the new ships as they come online.

And in any case, even a brand new crew should know what to do after 2 years.

We saw this in the vast naval expansions that occurred during WW2 with the USN, Royal Navy and Imperial Japanese Navy

A transition period alone takes two years from an old ship and taking in sailors who are used to patrol boats into a completely new missile guided destroyer would take more than 5 since it is a complete new animal with various different procedures.
In WW2 the arms were simple, now it is computerized and complicated. It takes more than 5 years to train a new recruit who trained at school to fully utilize a CAD system starting them off from the basics in real life situations.
 
according to DefenseNews Satellite image shows Chinese deployment of new aircraft to South China Sea
kj-500-airborne-early-warning-aircraft-hainan-china.jpeg

China has deployed its latest airborne early warning and control aircraft to an air base on the fringes of the disputed South China Sea, according to exclusive satellite imagery obtained by Defense News.

The photo taken March 24 by commercial satellite imagery company DigitalGlobe shows a pair of Shaanxi KJ-500 turboprop AEW&C aircraft with its distinctive radar dish on the ground at Jialaishi Air Base in the northern part of China’s Hainan island. Two other Y-8 aircraft — an older KJ-200 AEW&C aircraft, and the other possibly a Y-8J or Y-8X maritime patrol aircraft — can be seen alongside the KJ-500s.

This is the first time the KJ-500 has been deployed to Hainan, with China having previously rotationally deployed special mission aircraft detachments to the island. These detachments are drawn from two special-mission aircraft regiments of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy, or PLAN, based in northern China. The detachments are usually made up of a mixture of KJ-200 AEW&C aircraft with Y-8Js and Y-8Xs, and they tend to operate from Lingshui on the southeastern tip of Hainan.

However, Lingshui is currently undergoing large-scale construction work to improve its aircraft parking and possibly dispersal facilities, which would have forced the detachment to at least temporarily relocate. The March 24 image is the first time multiple Y-8s and/or Y-9s have been observed at Jialaishi.

Jialaishi is one of three major PLAN air bases in Hainan, which is located on the northern fringes of the South China Sea and its disputed islands. The three bases are normally home to three regiments of Shenyang J-11B Flanker fighters and a single regiment of Xi'an JH-7 fighter-bombers, from which they have been used on occasion to intercept U.S. military flights operating in nearby international airspace.

The KJ-500 is the latest AEW&C aircraft to be fielded by China and is expected to eventually replace the older KJ-200s currently in service. It is based on the Shaanxi Y-9 turboprop and carries a dorsal radar dish mounting an indigenous phased array radar with three fixed arrays angled at 120 degrees relative to each other for all-round coverage. Smaller radar arrays are carried on the nose and rear fuselage for additional coverage.

A satellite communications dome is mounted on top of the KJ-500’s radar dish along with side-looking electronic intelligence panels on both sides of the fuselage for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions. The type entered service with the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force in late 2014 or early 2015, with six KJ-500s known to have been delivered as of January 2017, including at least two for the PLAN.

Unverified photos of the PLAN’s KJ-500s have indicated that they are carrying serial numbers belonging to the Hainan-based 9th Naval Air Division, which if true would represent a departure from the previous PLAN practice of assigning AEW&C aircraft to special-mission naval aviation units. It would also suggest that these aircraft would be permanently stationed in Hainan instead of being assigned there on temporary rotations.
source:
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EDIT
oops I intended to post in
China's SCS Strategy Thread
 
Last edited:
OK OK I know Guam is not located in the SCS but still
4-Nation Drills Postponed After Craft Runs Aground on Guam
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Military drills on Guam in which four countries were to practice amphibious landings and moving their troops have been postponed indefinitely after a French landing craft ran aground Friday.

The weeklong exercises involving the U.S., U.K., France and Japan were intended to show support for the free passage of vessels in international waters amid concerns China may restrict access to the South China Sea.

The French landing craft ran aground just offshore and didn't hit coral or spill any fuel, said Jeff Landis, a spokesman for Naval Base Guam. No one was injured. Friday's landing was meant to be a rehearsal for a drill at Tinian island on Saturday, Landis said.

U.S.
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Capt. Jeff Grimes, chief of staff for Joint Region Marianas, said the authorities involved were working to assess the situation and didn't know when the drills would resume.

"I have directed that we stop all operations associated with this exercise until we conduct a further assessment of the situation as we gather all the facts," Grimes said.

"NOAA in Honolulu is aware and is collecting information about the incident," said Michael Tosatto, administrator of a National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration regional office.

The drills around Guam and Tinian islands were scheduled to include amphibious landings, delivering forces by helicopter and urban patrols.

Two French ships on a four-month deployment to the Indian and Pacific oceans were to be involved. Joining were Japanese forces, U.K. helicopters and 70 U.K. troops deployed with the French amphibious assault ship FS Mistral. Parts of the exercise were to feature British helicopters taking U.S.
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ashore from a French vessel.

China claims virtually the entire South China Sea and has tried to fortify those claims by building islands — some with runways, radars and weapons systems — on seven mostly submerged reefs. The reclamation work is opposed by other governments that claim the atolls and by the United States, which insists on freedom of navigation in international waters.

China says its work is intended to improve safety for ships and meet other civilian purposes. It has said it won't interfere with freedom of navigation or overflight, although questions remain on whether that includes military ships and aircraft.

This week members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee expressed concern that the U.S. hasn't conducted freedom-of-navigation operations since October. Republican Bob Corker, Democrat Ben Cardin and five other senators wrote the letter to President Donald Trump, saying they supported a recent U.S. military assessment that China is militarizing the South China Sea and is continuing a "methodical strategy" to control it.

The letter, dated Wednesday and obtained by The Associated Press, urged the administration to "routinely exercise" freedom of navigation and overflight.

Japan, which sent 50 soldiers and 160 sailors and landing craft, has been investing in amphibious training so it can defend its own islands. Japan controls a group of rocky, uninhabited outcrops in the East China Sea that Beijing also claims. Japan calls the islands Senkaku while China calls them Diaoyu.

Japanese defense officials said they were waiting for further details, including what happens to the rest of the exercise in Guam, from the U.S. side. The four militaries were to move to the Tinian islands for more training next week.

Guam and Tinian are about 1,500 miles (2,400 kilometers) south of Tokyo and about the same distance to the east from Manila, Philippines.
 
May 3, 2017
according to NYT Trump’s Turn Toward China Curtails Navy Patrols in Disputed Zones
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and now (LOL it's dated 5/15/2017)
Senators Ask Trump to Resume Freedom of Navigation
A bipartisan group of seven US Senators sent a
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to President Donald Trump Wednesday expressing concern that “the United States has not conducted regular and routine Freedom of Navigation Operations in the South China Sea since October 2016.” The letter, written by Sens. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) and Ben Cardin (D-Md.), was signed by four Democrats and three Republicans. It makes reference to the recent congressional testimony of Adm. Harry Harris, commander of US Pacific Command, that “China’s militarization of the South China Sea is real,” and it outlines the strategic importance of that sea, which carries 30 percent of world maritime trade annually, including “$1.2 trillion in shipborne trade bound for the United States.” While the senators state that the US “takes no position on competing sovereignty claims in the South China Sea,” they point to “a series of aggressive steps” China has taken in the region recently and stress that Freedom of Navigation Operations “are essential elements of larger US strategy to safeguard freedom of navigation and overflight in the Asia-Pacific.” The letter closes with the lawmakers urging the President to “take necessary steps to routinely exercise freedom of navigation and overflight in the South China Sea.”
source is AirForceMag
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Blackstone

Brigadier
May 3, 2017

and now (LOL it's dated 5/15/2017)
Senators Ask Trump to Resume Freedom of Navigation
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US FONOPS globally are legit and meet established international laws and norms. US should and must continue to conduct them anytime, anywhere in accordance to said laws and norms. Full stop.

What does Admiral Harris want to do in the SCS? Strut his shinny toys around the bathtub to what end? He whines endlessly about China militarizing its own islands in the SCS, but so what? China is pursuing its interests in the region. It's what nations big and small do; they pursue their own interests above others.

Most US political leaders are against waging wars to stop China's power grab in the SCS, and polls show the American people don't support wars there. Regional countries in the Asia-Pacific don't want conflicts between US and China, not even Japan, and don't want to choose between Washington and Beijing. There's little appetite for confrontations and none for conflicts. So, it's not clear why neocon-lib politicians and defense officials think grandstanding and symbolic actions could do much to improve US standings in the area.

The outlook for American primacy in Asia is not good, as balance of power is tilting in China's favor. It's unclear if Washington could reverse the trend, even if it really wants to. Maintaining primacy against the still reemerging China requires Cold War era economic, political, and military containment, which successive administrations, including Trump's, aren't willing to do. Anything less isn't likely to get the job done, as evidenced by countries like Vietnam, Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and more sliding closer towards China, and farther away from the US. Japan is beginning to amass tools to chart its own course.

So, what exactly is America's strategy in Asia? Does it want to maintain its primacy? If yes, then it must get off the dime and do everything in its power to contain China. Hard, unyielding containment on all fronts, including, if necessary, conflicts. And if America isn't willing to do the Full Monty, then it should stop pretending, because no one is buying a pig in the poke.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Looks like a nice low key Freedom of Navigation mission that gets the point across but doesn't upset the apple cart too much.

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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Navy warship sailed within 12 nautical miles of an artificial island built up by China, U.S. officials said on Wednesday, the first such challenge to Beijing under U.S. President Donald Trump.

The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the USS Dewey was traveling close to the Mischief Reef in the Spratly Islands, among a string islets, reefs and shoals over which China has territorial disputes with its neighbors.

The so-called "freedom of navigation operation" comes at a time when Trump is seeking China's cooperation to rein in ally North Korea's nuclear and missile programs.

The move, the latest attempt to counter what Washington sees as Beijing's efforts to limit freedom of navigation in the strategic waters, is likely to anger China.

Under the previous administration, the U.S. Navy conducted such voyages through the South China Sea. The last such operation was carried out in October, approved by then-President Barack Obama.

China's extensive claims to the South China Sea, which sees about $5 trillion in ship-borne trade pass every year, are challenged by Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Vietnam, as well as Taiwan.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Looks like a confrontation took place between Vietnam and Indonesia. If the claims are true, then a very aggressive move on Vietnam's behalf.

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11m9ti0.jpg


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says several Vietnamese fishing vessels escaped its waters following a show of force by Vietnam's coast guard in the
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.

Indonesia's Maritime and Fisheries Ministry said Tuesday that Vietnam is holding an Indonesian fisheries officer, who was aboard one of the Vietnamese vessels, and Indonesia has 11 Vietnamese crew members in its custody.

According to Indonesia,
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Sunday took place north of the Natuna island chain within Indonesia's exclusive economic zone.

The ministry said five Vietnamese-flagged fishing vessels were intercepted by a maritime patrol vessel and were under its control until a Vietnamese coast guard ship rammed the fishing boat with the Indonesian official aboard, sinking it. The ministry said no one was hurt.

It said the Indonesian vessel withdrew after several more Vietnamese coast guard vessels were seen approaching on radar while an Indonesian warship was 30 minutes away.

Vietnam's coast guard declined to comment.

Tensions easily flare in the South China Sea, a major global trading route. China's claim to most of the sea overlaps with the territorial waters of several Southeast Asian nations.

Indonesia has destroyed hundreds of vessels caught fishing illegally in its waters over the past two years, many of them Vietnamese-flagged, as part of a policy of strengthening control over the archipelago nation's vast maritime territory.

Rifky Effendi Hardjianto, secretary-general of the fisheries ministry, told a news conference that ministry officials have met with Vietnam's ambassador and would resolve the incident through normal diplomatic channels. Both sides agreed to avoid a repeat of the clash, he said.
 
here is A Brief History of U.S. Freedom of Navigation Operations in the South China Sea
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Over the past three years, the U.S. and China have been at odds over the status of Chinese artificial islands in the South China Sea and U.S. Freedom of Navigation Operations.

The Origin of FON Ops
1979


The U.S. government initiated a Freedom of Navigation Program to contest “unilateral acts of other states designed to restrict the rights and freedom of the international community.” The program includes both maneuvers designed exclusively to challenge maritime claims the U.S. considers excessive, and operations with other purposes that incidentally challenge territorial claims.

China Taken to Court
Jan. 22, 2013

The Philippines announced that it was taking a case to a U.N. tribunal contesting China’s claim to nearly all of the South China Sea. The Philippines argued that China overstepped its legal authority by allowing Chinese patrol vessels to block and board vessels trying to pass through contested waters.

Raising Islands
2014

China ramped up dredging operations to turn two reefs, Subi and Mischief, in the Spratly Islands into artificial islands. While the reefs have been occupied by China since 1995, Taiwan, the Philippines and Vietnam also claim ownership.

Warning Shouts
April 19, 2015

Spokesmen for the Philippine government accused a Chinese ship of being “aggressive” toward a Philippine military plane on patrol in the South China Sea near Subi Reef. The Chinese ship flashed lights and told the plane via radio, “You’re entering Chinese territory, leave,” according to Philippine military spokesman Lt. Col. Harold Cabunoc. Manila claimed the plane was flying over Filipino waters.

China Tiptoes Into Bering Strait
Sept. 2, 2015

Five Chinese warships crossed into U.S. territorial waters heading south out of the Bering Sea, exercising the “innocent passage” clause in maritime law that allows a warship to cross into another country’s maritime territory legally.

Lassen Buzzes Reefs
Oct. 26, 2015

USS Lassen (DDG-82) passed within 12 nautical miles of Subi and Mischief reefs.

‘Innocent’ Or ‘Irresponsible’
Jan. 29-30, 2016

Chinese state-controlled media lambasted the US Navy after USS Curtis Wilbur (DDG-54) passed within 12 nautical miles of Triton Island in the Paracel Island Chain, calling the maneuver “unprofessional and irresponsible.” The Pentagon said the operation was in keeping with the Law of the Sea Convention’s article governing “innocent passage” through a nation’s territorial waters.

Classify or Magnify?
April 28, 2016

Chairman of Senate Armed Services Committee Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) criticized Defense Secretary Ash Carter for his reluctance to detail U.S. presence operations in the South China Sea during a Senate hearing.

Playing With Fire
May 10, 2016

USS William Lawrence (DDG-110) sailed within 12 nautical miles of Fiery Cross Reef, a contested artificial island in the Spratly Island chain.

Hague Rules with Philippines
July 12, 2016

A U.N. tribunal sided with the Filipino government, ruling against China’s claim to historic rights over the South China Sea. However, the UN has no mechanism to enforce its ruling. The Chinese Foreign Ministry issued a statement claiming the tribunal’s decision “is invalid and has no binding force,” and that “China does not accept or recognize it.”

Experts Recommend FON Ops
Sept. 21, 2016

At a House Armed Services seapower and projection forces subcommittee hearing, experts in the South China Sea and maritime law recommended the U.S. step up Freedom of Navigation Operations and include allies like Japan.

China Tails Decatur
Oct. 21, 2016

USS Decatur (DDG-73) conducted a freedom of navigation operation near the Paracel Islands. According to Reuters, three Chinese ships shadowed the Decatur, which traveled without escort ships.

FON OPs To Come
April 26, 2017

U.S. Pacific Command commander Adm. Harry Harris told lawmakers China was being “aggressive” and predicted the Navy would carry out Freedom of Navigation operations “soon.”

More Mischief
May 26, 2017

USS Dewey (DDG-105) passed within six nautical miles of Mischief Reef, zig-zagging near the island and conducting a man overboard drill, according to a US official.
 
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