Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

jobjed

Captain
I did NOT call you a "Disney Princess"

Annnnnd... Brat shows his true colours.



I'm far more aware of the physical properties of the varying production methods than you

Perhaps. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. The only thing you can be sure of is that you can't be sure. Working on and flying an aircraft doesn't allow you to understand all of its properties. For example, I'd like to see you integrate pressure differential over the entirety of an aerofoil profile. Flying a Cessna doesn't mean you're the indisputable authority on the physical laws that allow it to fly.

in a new book on the amazing F-22, there is a cut-away drawing showing the actual superstructure under the skin of a 10+ G airframe,,, the J-20 and the FC-31 are NO Doubt very similar in order to carry a similar load, and I would remind you that AF-2 has been to 9.9 Gs in flight test!

What the heck do you mean "no doubt?" How can you possible be qualified to claim that with THAT amount of certainty?

Also, no one's arguing for the J-20's being definitely 15 tonnes, it's YOU who's arguing that the J-20 definitely cannot be 15 tonnes, as if you're some sagely ubermensch who knows every single design detail of not only your country's top secret fighter jet, but also an adversary country's fighter jet.

so you believe "anything" that makes you happy Sunshine,, really, but you ought to show a little respect to your "elders"..... you'll be here soon, before you know it,, won't be able to pass a bathroom, and you'll have to trade in your cute little "red spandex" uniform for a pair of "Depends", and the only weight you'll be lifting is your "tea cup"!

I've always suspected you of being this type of person, and finally there's hard evidence. You're the type to demand respect because of no reason save your age. No, your age doesn't constitute reason to have you shown any more deference than your junior peers. You will be treated the same as everyone else regardless of your age. Not sure if you've heard but respect is earnt, not given, and what have you done in this thread to deserve the respect you demand from manqiangrexue?

Getting old takes no effort, you can literally sit there, do absolutely nothing and still get old. Doing nothing and still getting respect doesn't sit well with me. So tell me, Brat, what have you accomplished that you believe justifies the amount of respect you demand?
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I did NOT call you a "Disney Princess", I did state that mind set is make believe,,, I'm far more aware of the physical properties of the varying production methods than you my friend. When you actually work on and fly something that you work on??

in a new book on the amazing F-22, there is a cut-away drawing showing the actual superstructure under the skin of a 10+ G airframe,,, the J-20 and the FC-31 are NO Doubt very similar in order to carry a similar load, and I would remind you that AF-2 has been to 9.9 Gs in flight test!

so you believe "anything" that makes you happy Sunshine,, really, but you ought to show a little respect to your "elders"..... you'll be here soon, before you know it,, won't be able to pass a bathroom, and you'll have to trade in your cute little "red spandex" uniform for a pair of "Depends", and the only weight you'll be lifting is your "tea cup"!

nice avatar by the way........

LOL

Similars problems for EM cats ... laborious and penible !

Let's move on Bro in 3 pages with some your again here i am sure :rolleyes: bla bla bla
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I did NOT call you a "Disney Princess", I did state that mind set is make believe,,, I'm far more aware of the physical properties of the varying production methods than you my friend. When you actually work on and fly something that you work on??

in a new book on the amazing F-22, there is a cut-away drawing showing the actual superstructure under the skin of a 10+ G airframe,,, the J-20 and the FC-31 are NO Doubt very similar in order to carry a similar load, and I would remind you that AF-2 has been to 9.9 Gs in flight test!

so you believe "anything" that makes you happy Sunshine,, really, but you ought to show a little respect to your "elders"..... you'll be here soon, before you know it,, won't be able to pass a bathroom, and you'll have to trade in your cute little "red spandex" uniform for a pair of "Depends", and the only weight you'll be lifting is your "tea cup"!

nice avatar by the way........
Oh, so you weren't calling any specific person a Disney princess, just people who disagree with you in general! Ohhh ok ok. My bad, so I certainly don't wanna be a Disney princess, so if I agree with you, then I'm not, right? OK I'll agree with you then to spare myself LOLOLOL Was that how your argument was supposed to work? Hahaha How slick! And they say cognitive function declines with age :rolleyes:

Let's be honest here Brat, you flew aircraft (maybe); you never designed or built them and you have no contact with any 5th gen fighters, so don't pretend to know stuff you don't.

I'm sorry, I don't respect age; I respect reason and evidence, which you time and time again fail to show. Age just means someone didn't die yet; nothing special. I'll get old too but I'll do my best to keep my thoughts open and young. But if it helps you any, my 98 year old grandma says China can do anything and build anything and a 15 tonne J-20 is certainly possible. Respect that, whippersnapper! LOL
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Very well stated, and point taken,,,, the molten titanium in 3D printing is a marvel, and in the end will likely give you a finished part that may then be forged in a press, heat treated, or machined, likely requiring less machining to achieve a finished part, castings offer similar benefits in general..

A Forging will almost always render a stronger part per weight, due to the heated metal being "forged" and compressed, and the molecular structure being compressed and having a tigher "grain", also forging decreases the chance for "voids" or irregularities in the finished product....

So yes a 3D printed part, or even a traditional casting will likely weigh less and be less dense than a forging, depending on the individual part, that may be advantageous?? Or NOT??

Agreed in general, and especially that so far "forged" product is still advantageous than ordinary 3D printed product due to the compression.

However, there is a new development in China (within a year in the past) that combined forging with 3D printing. What they achieved was to steel, they haven't done it to titanium yet (last I checked). So soon we will see 3D printing being both fast, even and strong, then it will be super-duper.

For anyone to suggest though that the J-20 is a 15 ton aircraft as opposed to the F-22 being a 20 +ton aircraft, and that 3D printing results in a 25% weight reduction in an aircraft designed and manufactured to pull 9 Gs is does indeed place that individual in the "Disney Princess" category!

So Chengdu, Shenyang, Boeing, and Lockmart each build EACH individual part with the most effective method for maximum strength and functionality!

but to expect knowledgeable posters to buy the notion that Chinese manufacturing is "light years" ahead of LockMart, Boeing, or the designers and producers of the Eurofighter and friends is just a fairy tale.. YES, 3D printing is awesome and amazing, it is also expensive when the tooling and software are taken into consideration..

So a 3 to 7% weight reduction is no doubt possible and likely, and yes 3D printed parts offer an amazing opportunity by producing a finished part that may require many many hours less machining and produce an accurate part that requires "MUCH LESS" machining and fitting

an example are turbine blades,, 3D printing is going to revolutionize high performance, high efficiency aircraft engine building, but the resultant engine operating temperatures will go way up as well.....
You probably replied to the wrong guy. I was not involved in the claim of "x% weight reduction of J-20/31"
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
@Air Force Brat if you are still interested, here is the breakthrough I talked about in #5127
All links are in Chinese, so I make brief translation. You can verify them if you can.

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This is a report in January 2017 on signing cooperation agreement between Tianyu and Airbus for Tianyu to deliver product made out of their method "micro-casting and forging 3d printing". Tianyu is a company in Wuhan, Hubei, China. Their method combines all three procedures in one and makes the 3d printed product as strong as forging. And they have made titanium product using this method (correction to my post #5127).

The largest product they made using this method is 2.2 meters long and 1.8x1.4x0.02 meter, max weight 260kg.

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Report on August 28, 2017 on acceptance delivery to "an international" aircraft manufacture (Airbus) of 3d printed products (1st picture). It was stated that "the quality exceeded Airbus's expectation". It is delivered unpolished as requested. It is of titanium.

You can see other things they made for airbus in the link.

So, at this moment, I would say the notion "3D printing is weaker than traditional method" is already outdated.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
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Report on August 28, 2017 on acceptance delivery to "an international" aircraft manufacture (Airbus) of 3d printed products (1st picture). It was stated that "the quality exceeded Airbus's expectation". It is delivered unpolished as requested. It is of titanium.

You can see other things they made for airbus in the link.

So, at this moment, I would say the notion "3D printing is weaker than traditional method" is already outdated.

You missed the very last line: 当前,天昱还完成交付了其他军工项目

Translation: Tianyu currently delivers products for other military projects
 

longmarch

Junior Member
Registered Member
A few years ago when 3d printing was relatively new, people scoffed at the news that China uses 3d printing to make airplane parts, saying it's only for plastics and not strong enough.

But once GE announced that they used 3d printing in their engines, everyone stops questioning and marveled at it.

Some people still have the mindset that if China claims something advanced, it got to be false or fake or laughable. If US announce it, it got to be true and amazing.

But China doesn't build those things to please any foreign observers or seek approval. Does Professor Ma care much what you think about him or his EM cat? He already made the claim publicly that his system is leading US one. Do you think he cares much about those who laugh at him?

That is little chance we would ever know how much J20 weighs. But for EM cat, we already know it's being used to launch J15 on land, in a few years we'll see it happen at sea. And by that time, who would be laughing?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Let's give this weight talk a rest guys. I agree with the anti-(15T skeptics) here. Am I understanding this correctly? the simple facts are. The people who are claiming 15T, are claiming POSSIBILITY and trying to find some shreds of evidence that make this POSSIBILITY well within reality. The others and the normal crowd of fans are flat out claiming it is IMPOSSIBLE despite them knowing nothing of engineering or in particular, aeronautical engineering, further, aeronautical engineering of Chinese military equipment. So these people pretend to know everything and claim other's are living/thinking/whatever like fairytale princesses. Does that seem right or fair? I get it, it's hard to imagine 15T and I have my own doubts, but I don't know anything for certain so I keep my mouth shut. Or if I want to weigh in on this particular matter as I have done in the past, I don't say anything with certainty or arrogance. Probably wise to do similarly.... or at least realise you're just as much a douche as any of us when we run our mouths off from time to time.
 
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