Religious and/or ethnic issues on ships

Bltizo said:

I like that they have a dedicated Muslim mess deck as well, probably for Halal foods.

Given China does have a not insubstantial Muslim population especially in the Hui ethnic group, and the Navy and Liaoning itself likely has a good number of Muslim sailors as well so it's important to respect those aspects of their culture and religion when possible.

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Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but Wikipedia suggests the Muslim population of China is approximately 21m or 1.6% of the population. That seems a rather low proportion to justify a dedicated mess hall taking up scarce ship's volume.

Are Muslims over-represented in the PLA/PLAN relative to broader Chinese society? Is accommodating religious/ethnic/cultural diversity a priority within the PLA/PLAN? Just curious how this all fits together.

Lethe said:

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but Wikipedia suggests the Muslim population of China is approximately 21m or 1.6% of the population. That seems a rather low proportion to justify a dedicated mess hall taking up scarce ship's volume.

Are Muslims over-represented in the PLA/PLAN relative to broader Chinese society? Is accommodating religious/ethnic/cultural diversity a priority within the PLA/PLAN? Just curious how this all fits together.

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I think what Bltzio mean is that the PLA/PLAN has a dedicated small room or section for it's Muslim service members to gather and pray. No different in the US Armed Forces as well, where they provided religious services and meals for any particular religious members.

Lethe said:

Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but Wikipedia suggests the Muslim population of China is approximately 21m or 1.6% of the population. That seems a rather low proportion to justify a dedicated mess hall taking up scarce ship's volume.

Are Muslims over-represented in the PLA/PLAN relative to broader Chinese society? Is accommodating religious/ethnic/cultural diversity a priority within the PLA/PLAN? Just curious how this all fits together.

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No I don't think they are over-represented. Neither is the practice of having a Muslim dedicated cafeteria based on percentage of Muslim population.

It is a principle of everyone is equally respected and having equal chance to serve the country. As I have said in another post this is a common practice in China. An example is my university in Beijing, it had two big cafeterias and one small Muslim cafeteria which is much bigger in area than the two big ones in terms of number of people it can serve.

Equation said:

I think what Bltzio mean is that the PLA/PLAN has a dedicated small room or section for it's Muslim service members to gather and pray. No different in the US Armed Forces as well, where they provided religious services and meals for any particular religious members.

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Just one comment that differs before we get carried away.

The Chinese characters says cafeteria specifically. And I don't think praying as a religious activity is even allowed in PLA. Religious activities are officially banned in all Chinese state institutions even more so in the military. Remember that Feast is banned by all government employees and schools? So strictly speaking these Muslim service personals are non-practicing Muslims who follow certain Muslim traditions except praying to Allah. One can say Chinese state see them as an ethnic group rather than a religious group. Same as the governor of the Xinjiang province who is an ethnic Uighur, probably never eat pork but a communist.

kriss said:

As far as I know they don't have halal mess in army (even for those garrisoned in western china). The military don't like you special yourself out of your comrades for no matter what reason be it personal, ethic, or religion. The navy and other more tech sensitive branch are not so strict on this but in case of Liaoning I think it's more of a PR thing. Since this First Chinese Carrier thing has been such a good PR project, they'd want to show off how people from all 56 ethic groups work together defending their mutual motherland (it's such a big ship anyway). Every time the media reported halal mess room was after they introduced some Uighur or Kazakh soldiers (mostly female). And this time it's Malaysian visiting and we know Malaysia is a muslim country so they pick it up again.

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I have no knowledge about the army, so I can't say for sure, but I thought PLA in Xinjiang usually put all Muslim soldiers in an ethnic unit where they probably only provide non pork food but it is not halal in the orthodoxy Islamic sense. The non Muslim members of those unit will just eat lamb because western Han Chinese eat lamb and beef a lot anyway.

taxiya said:

I thought PLA in Xinjiang usually put all Muslim soldiers in an ethnic unit

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I seriously doubt that. They even try hard to avoid putting too much soldiers from same place in one unit after some incidents involving fellow townsmen gang up on each other and create rivalry inside the unit. A pure muslim unit is just out of imagination. The risk and potential damage is just too much and can be avoided by other very simple ways.

taxiya said:

No I don't think they are over-represented. Neither is the practice of having a Muslim dedicated cafeteria based on percentage of Muslim population.

It is a principle of everyone is equally respected and having equal chance to serve the country. As I have said in another post this is a common practice in China. An example is my university in Beijing, it had two big cafeterias and one small Muslim cafeteria which is much bigger in area than the two big ones in terms of number of people it can serve.

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Thanks for your input. The principle that everyone should be equally respected and have equal chance to serve the nation is a laudable one, but surely you can see the practical difficulties that can arise with this? A warship has limited space to offer e.g. alternative catering facilities compared to a land-based facility like a university. Would we really find a dedicated Muslim mess hall aboard e.g. a submarine or 054A frigate for the (on average) 1.5% of the crew that require them?

The explanation advanced by kriss that, in the case of Liaoning, the dedicated Muslim mess hall serves a PR function reflecting the vessel's broader symbolism for China and enabled by its large volume, seems plausible to me.

To be clear I am not attempting to criticise China's practices here, merely to understand them. Alas I know very little about ethnicity and culture within China, let alone how those matters are handled at an institutional level by the CCCP and PLA.

Lethe said:

Thanks for your input. The principle that everyone should be equally respected and have equal chance to serve the nation is a laudable one, but surely you can see the practical difficulties that can arise with this? A warship has limited space to offer e.g. alternative catering facilities compared to a land-based facility like a university. Would we really find a dedicated Muslim mess hall aboard e.g. a submarine or 054A frigate for the (on average) 1.5% of the crew that require them?

The explanation advanced by kriss that, in the case of Liaoning, the dedicated Muslim mess hall serves a PR function reflecting the vessel's broader symbolism for China and enabled by its large volume.

To be clear I am not attempting to criticise China's practices here, merely to understand them. Alas I know very little about ethnicity and culture within China, let alone how those matters are handled at an institutional level by the CCCP and PLA.

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Thanks for the comment. And I have no objection to either your or kriss' opinions. Although this is off topic but it is a good discussion to understand the Chinese practice in military and as a whole in general.

One more thing to add is that the number of Muslim servicemen in Chinese military is actually lower than their portion of the whole population precisely because of their adherence to Islamic traditions. Yes the recruiting of Muslim sailors itself onboard Liaoning was as you said more of a PR thing evidenced by the media coverage of the first group of them went on board some years ago.

My specific point is that if, once and after there is such members in the unit or state institution it is common practice to facilities their special need INSTEAD of "forcing" them to adopt. BTW, it is not really a waste of space in Liaoning's case, I am sure all other sailors will just use the "halal" cafeteria. I did that regularly when I was in university. It is not Muslim exclusive place, it is just a kitchen where all types of meat except pork are served and vegetable oil is used, no praying is allowed. I don't see how could this practice really can waste the space.

I think I need to remind you that the Chinese version of diversity tolerating is quite a different thing from Western world, I guess that may have caused your view that there is an issue. In China the only issue is pork or not, nothing else such as praying or priest etch. The Muslim food issue in PLAN is no more than, say, vegetarian servicemen onboard of a USN aircraft carrier. I hope that makes my point clearer.

kriss said:

I seriously doubt that. They even try hard to avoid putting too much soldiers from same place in one unit after some incidents involving fellow townsmen gang up on each other and create rivalry inside the unit. A pure muslim unit is just out of imagination. The risk and potential damage is just too much and can be avoided by other very simple ways.

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Then I think the only other option is not to have Muslim soldiers at all. There is simply no way you can force them to join the military and abandon their eating habit from day one of their lives. Once again I don't know any example of Muslim soldiers in PLA other than the "ethnic unit" from the media, but that could be the only unit they could join?

I asked a Muslim college of mine about the food issue, she told me it is not really a religious thing as she never visited a mosque to pray, but it's just she has never eaten pork in her life and she just dislike the smell of it. Many Han Chinese dislike the smell of lamb or sheep meat also, including myself (the first time). I still remember the first time I eat yogurt, I almost puked.

taxiya said:

Then I think the only other option is not to have Muslim soldiers at all. There is simply no way you can force them to join the military and abandon their eating habit from day one of their lives. Once again I don't know any example of Muslim soldiers in PLA other than the "ethnic unit" from the media, but that could be the only unit they could join?

I asked a Muslim college of mine about the food issue, she told me it is not really a religious thing as she never visited a mosque to pray, but it's just she has never eaten pork in her life and she just dislike the smell of it. Many Han Chinese dislike the smell of lamb or sheep meat also, including myself (the first time). I still remember the first time I eat yogurt, I almost puked.

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As for me I love bacon, lamb chops, yogurt, beef and chicken, and an occasional dog or cat (both only once).