QTS-11 OICW. 5.8 mm Heavy and 20 mm Air Burst.

Discussion in 'Army' started by tanlixiang28776, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. Inst
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    Inst Senior Member

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    One last thing to note. I think plawolf and others have argued that the QTS-11's grenades can function as pure concussion grenades. Unfortunately, the MK3A2 concussion grenade, only has a 2 meter killing radius. Moreover, it contains 233 grams of TNT, whereas the QTS-11's grenades have a projected explosive charge of 38 grams. Even when factoring in more modern explosive compositions, the QTS-11's grenades have 79% less explosive power. This gives it roughly only a .9 meter killing radius from the blast itself. Not inconsiderable, but very poor when it comes to concussion grenades.
     
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  2. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    This is probably part of the reason only 3 National armies looked to 20mm Airburst launchers, XM29, K11 and ZH05 with 1 having moved up to a 25mm for the US XM25.
    The French who also looked at the concept moved to a 35mm concept with the PAPOP but realized the size and weight of the System was problematic same for the Australian AICW with a Metal Storm 3 shot 40mm launcher. So far you are either too big, heavy and expensive for regular issue or to light in casualty producing payload with these systems.
    The other options being to modify the conventional Low velocity 40mm to airburst, and option that the PRC could probably also do to there 35mm LV.
    The Neopup since renamed Inkunzi went a totally different direction rather then a indirect fire system they targeted a direct fire mode with Impact grenades.
     
  3. Insignius
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    Insignius Junior Member

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    Let me repost this:



    Note at about 1:30 we see the Chinese AGLs in action, all using airburst rounds of some kind. Most interestingly, the QLU-11 35mm "grenade sniper launcher" also seems to be capable of computerized airburst (here, shown the LG-5 40mm export version).

    So, I have no doubts that the PLA has both the hard-hitting 35mm airbursts, as well as the less hard-hitting but still deadly 20mm airbursts in service, supporting each other in a fire-fight.

    As we see from some recent pictures, PLA recon troops carry QLU-11s with them as squad support weapons.
    [​IMG][/IMG]
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    [​IMG][/IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Inst
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    Inst Senior Member

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    Well, the QTS-11 is unique given its simpler mechanisms. As to total weight, a 40mm MPRS only weighs about 2 pounds more. Moving up to the 25mm or 30mm caliber would not add significant weight to the QTS-11.

    That said, I have been looking up Chinese hand grenades. For instance, common hand grenades are typically in the 450 grams range, while minis like the Type 86P are in the 230 grams range. But that's the fully thing, the Type 86P actually has around 1600 steel balls inside, for an average fragmentation energy of 300 joules, well in the pistol range. So while AP grenades CAN exist, the closest candidate seems to be the American M67, and these sacrifice the number of fragments produced, reducing the chances of a hit, for armor piercing.

    The other strategy seems to be to put out enough fragments that at least one or two would manage to hit exposed body parts. But with the Type 86P, you'd get average distances between fragments of about 18 inches at 15 feet, even with 1600 steel balls.
     
  5. Inst
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    Inst Senior Member

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    The thing I find really odd about the QTS-11 is that the grenade attachment and fire control seems to weigh only 760 grams, when you consider the base QBZ-03 is 3.5 kg. I.e, the QTS-11 is about at the same weight as the Tavor and M16 with an underslung grenade launcher. I.e, what the hell are they using in the barrel?

    One possibility is that since the grenade launcher is going to be used a lot less, it's less reinforced; i.e, it has a metal content comparable to the rifle barrel despite being of significantly greater caliber. This could be why the Chinese opted for such a small and low-power projectile; they are pushing the limits of their barrel.
     
  6. Insignius
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    Insignius Junior Member

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    The QBZ-03 might weight 3.5 kilo, but that's including the stock and all. The QTS-11 has a reduced QBZ-03 stripped off all its non-essential parts. I would say the carbine portion barely weights 3kg.

    I discovered some nice CGs that might show how the QTS-11 looks like if stripped off all its electronics part and used only as a carbine with 20mm bolt action launcher:

    Specifically, we can assume that the both the carbine and the launcher basically share the same plastic case, which cuts down the weight of the individual parts. I would assume that the QBZ-03 portion is actually the lightest, maybe even below 2,5kg, with the grenade launcher being heavier due to the massive recoil-buffer, the breech and the stock.

    [​IMG]
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  7. Inst
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    Inst Senior Member

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    The way I see it, the QTS-11's caliber can't really be increased, since it's built in such a way that the barrel fills the entire stock. The only way to seriously increase the payload of the grenade would be to lengthen it. This would have the added benefit of allowing the QTS-11 to use older, shorter ammunition, perhaps with some accuracy penalties, but also enable larger payloads.

    Here's the funny thing, though. At 219 m/s, with a 85 gram projectile, muzzle energy is already 4 kJ, twice that of a 5.56 or 5.8mm round. Upscaling it to 30mm would put the muzzle energy at an incredible 12 kJ, making it kick like quite a bugger.

    An alternative approach would be to simply lengthen the cartridge, presumably improving its drag characteristics, but sacrificing kinematics as well by reducing the total output energy. The effective dimensions of the QTS-11's ammunition is roughly 20x50mm. Increasing to, say, 20x100mm, while sacrificing velocity, would be able to get you up to around 170 grams, which is actually about the same mass as a NATO or Chinese underslung grenade, and the same length as well.
     
  8. TerraN_EmpirE
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    TerraN_EmpirE Tyrant King

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    Except lengthening the round would cause issues in clambering and seating in the riffing.
    Remember that this is a bolt action, a rifle action. The round may be a grenade but the launcher is bound to the technology of a rifle.
    To load the grenade round it has to fit in the chamber and seat properly. To allow interface with the fireing mechenisum and the fire control system that inputs the data to time the airburst.
    The bolt throw is only so large.

    Inst might want to check your math....Given the weight of the round described and how it compared to the XM29 you are still likely looking at a round roughly in the same size as the XM1018 round this we can gage by the weight of the round. XM1018 being 92 grams well the ZH05 rounds 85 grams. 7 grams of difference between them meaning either a shorter round like say 20x26mm or a 20x28mm round with reduction somewhere in the works like a smaller battery. We can also tell this as the round fire by the K11 is 100 grams in weight @ 20x30mm, A full 15 grams heavier and the neopup takes it to 160grams @20x42mm. 20x100 wouldn't be possible for a system like the ZH05 unless it was substantial scaled up for use by a giant robot!!!
    This is because 20x110mm is the round used by the Denal NTW 20 20mm Antimaterial rifle (Canon) it's 1.8 meters long and weight 39kg. It's also used by M61 Vulcan cannons in American fighters and the Phalanx close in weapons system.
     
  9. Insignius
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    Insignius Junior Member

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    I dont think that they would want to sacrifice the flat trajectory in favor for more explosive material. Or else, they can just go with the underslug design that is being thrown around here and cited even in Chinese forums by people who are vehemently against the OICW concept.

    What they probably fail to realize is that a higher speed grenade with lower drag and flatter trajectory is a lot more accurate and hence more capable of inflicting critical damage even with lower explosive load. Even with a killing radius of just a single meter, an accurately placed airburst grenade into the firing ports of a defensive position will kill or seriously wound the enemy who is shooting out of it. As long as your explosive charge isnt that of a tank gun or a 1000lbs bomb, accuracy trumps explosive power.

    Also, a smaller and faster grenade might also be able to rip through anti-grenade nets set up by the defender to prevent slower thrown or launched grenades to get through firing ports or windows. Airburst function might also be applied here to good effect to counter such defenses.

    refer to this info graphic:

    [​IMG][/IMG][​IMG]
     
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  10. Klon
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    Klon Junior Member
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    yankeesama wrote a long piece about this and related topics.
     
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