Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

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Obi Wan Russell

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To be accurate, there was ONE harrier capable of inflicting damage on concrete and steel flight decks. A British Harrier GR3 airframe (XV798) that had been damaged beyond economic repair in the seventies was used for ground tests of the PCB Pegasus engine in the late 80s. PCB,- Plenum Chamber Burning, was the method proposed to make a supersonic Harrier, and was first suggested for the 'Super Harrier' P1154 in the 60s. It involves burning fuel in the forward (cold air) nozzles of a Pegasus engine to produce more thrust, effectively turning the nozzles into auxilliary engines. The airframe was rigged up to a large overhead gantry at Shoeburyness so that it could be raised off the ground and tested at various heights for ground effect. There was no pilot, and the only reason for using an airframe at all was to measure the efflux in relation to the airframe. The test proved that PCB would have been very destrucive to flight decks and runways had it been introduced, and the data was very helpful in the early design stages of the JSF. Instead of PCB, the JSF went for a much bigger engine to produce the necessary thrust in the hover without using afterburner.
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Scratch

Captain
Perhaps now more fitting here. In the Varyag thread I said on the topic:

Well, some time ago there was that talk about a type 081 LHA/LPH. I guess one day they'll finally come up with one.
But for now I think they have enough big ship projects running. The full scale CV (also there seems to be discussion if those ships are relevant in the future) and the LPD. I wonder how fast we'll see more of that class.
And they can also slowly gain experiance in sea based aviation. Because unlike the ROKN, wich has acces to a LOT of US experiance on that, PLAN probably will have to learn most for themselves.

Furthermore I think at least power projection and amphib assault, and to a lesser extend sea controll, do need air cover over such a task force. Without STOVL aircraft, helo carriers haven't enough punch for a larger scale strike. And might also, as Crobato said, become problems in defending against a larger scale attack.
 

Sargon

New Member
The Russian Kiev class had a special VTOL landing pad with heat resistant tiles because their aircraft, the Yak-38 Forger, was a different beast to the Harrier (far inferior in all regards, especially range, reported to be as little as 60km!). It had three engines instead of one so sat on three columns of very hot air in the hover. By contrast the Harrier sits on a single column of air from the four nozzles, the forward two of which are blowing nothing but COLD air from the compressor fan at the front of the Pegasus engine. This helps cool the hot air from the rear nozzles before it hits the deck (not completely by any means, but enough to prevent the deck from heating).

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Yakovlev lists the range of the Forger to be 1000 km. The original harrier had a range that was 200km greater though. Am I missing something here?

I second the LPH motion as well.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Yakovlev lists the range of the Forger to be 1000 km. The original harrier had a range that was 200km greater though. Am I missing something here?

Yes. Yakolev are telling porkies. The Forger lands and takes off using three engines compared to the Harrier's one. It's burning a lot more fuel doing that, whilst Harriers use a short take off run to save fuel. Harriers always fly with drop tanks, whereas Forgers didn't, and had to rely on internal fuel. First generation Harriers had a combat radius of about 450 miles with payload. Ask this question: How many marks of Harrier have been developed? How many examples produced? How many export customers? compare those figures to the Forger. How many Warsaw Pact countries adopted the Forger? That will give a measure of their respective successes.
 

crobato

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And yet somehow, the VTOL F-35 prefers to use the Forger's as a model for its VTOL system rather than the Harrier's.

The large intakes means an epic big RCS from the radar reflections off the engine blades. That will make the aircraft epic visible faster in radar and at longer ranges. The thermal concentration of the plane, unlike conventional jet fighters which tend to be at the tail, is right in the middle. So when a heater seeks it, its aimed right dead center of the plane, which reduces its chance of survival. The plane lacks any means to hide its thermal signature, and the layout prevents such means, all making it easier for heaters to acquire. The accident rate is one of the highest among Western aircraft, and in fact among US inventory (at least 45 marines have died). The plane is incapable of supersonic speeds, impossible to use afterburners, making it vulnerable to faster jets.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
And yet somehow, the VTOL F-35 prefers to use the Forger's as a model for its VTOL system rather than the Harrier's.

Not exactly, the Forger used a third engine to provide vertical thrust, while the F-35B will use a fan attached to a gearbox which is attached to the engine to provide the lift.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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And yet somehow, the VTOL F-35 prefers to use the Forger's as a model for its VTOL system rather than the Harrier's.

The large intakes means an epic big RCS from the radar reflections off the engine blades. That will make the aircraft epic visible faster in radar and at longer ranges. The thermal concentration of the plane, unlike conventional jet fighters which tend to be at the tail, is right in the middle. So when a heater seeks it, its aimed right dead center of the plane, which reduces its chance of survival. The plane lacks any means to hide its thermal signature, and the layout prevents such means, all making it easier for heaters to acquire. The accident rate is one of the highest among Western aircraft, and in fact among US inventory (at least 45 marines have died). The plane is incapable of supersonic speeds, impossible to use afterburners, making it vulnerable to faster jets.

Point 1: The F-35B does not use the Forgers engine layout at all, it only has one engine not three. the forward lift fan is shaft driven from the single aft facing engine, which employs a single swivelling nozzle at the rear. In vertical mode it sits on a column of hot air at the rear and a column of cold air forward, produced by a single engine just like a Harrier.

Point 2. If a heat seeking AAM hits any fighter aircraft its time to find out how true the claims of Matin Baker Ltd really are,- EJECT EJECT EJECT! In fact the position of the Harriers nozzles reduces it's IR signature compared to most fighter precisely because of it's mid position, when viewed from above the nozzles are hidden by the wings and the hot air exhaust from the nozzles is mixed with cold air from the forward nozzles, reducing the overall temperature of the exhaust. Name another fighter that can pull that trick...

Point 3. The accident rate. Time to put this to bed once again. When the USMC first introduced the AV-8A in the early 70s, the first sqn formed was populated almost entirely by qualified test pilots because the USMC were unsure of the skill level required to fly the Harrier. The sqn had an excellent safety record and the pilots reported the Harrier was very easy to fly, no particular problems arose they said. For test pilots, this was true as they are of a higher standard than regular sqn pilots. The USMC took this onboard and decided that not only would regular pilots be posted to Harrier sqns, why not post Helicopter pilots too? They are used to landing vertically aren't they? As it turned out the former helo pilots were excellent at landing and taking off vertically, and no accidents occured in the vertical regime. They did have a bad habit of flying into 'Cumulo Granite' at 500 knots because helo pilots generally don't have the currency for fast jet ops. This situation continued into the 80s when the AV-8B was introduced, when the problem was that whenever there wazs an accident the fleet would be grounded and pilots would lose currency. USMC Harriers when deployed aboard LHAs/LHDs operate differently to Harriers deployed at sea by other nations, aboard ship they are 'second class citizens' as the troop carrying helos are the ship's raison d'etre, and the Harriers have to sit around until required, ie they are not getting as much flying time as they should and not honing their flying skills. Practice makes perfect. This is the USMCs own explanation of the situation, and when a sqn of Marine Harriers deployed aboard HMS Illustrious last year they found it to such a refreshing change to be the priority aircraft aboard ship. The new LHA6 class are designed to operate the F-35B primarily and troop carry helos will be mostly operated from other ships within the ARG so the problem has been recognised and will be addressed.

Point 4. Afterburners. A great way of emptying your fuel tanks and making yourself the 'brightest point in the sky', just what your opponent's heat seeking Mach 3 AAMs wished for. Ask any fighter pilot, the best way to avoid such a misslie is by dropping flares and turning hard, the faster missile will not be able to turn as quickly because of it's speed. Try turnig a car at 20 mph and at 70 mph, you'll see the difference. Harriers have the best turning performance of any Fast jet in service today, thanks to their nozzles. When a Harrier 'VIFFs' (Vectors the nozzles in Forward Flight), the aircraft's nose pitches upwards by anything up to 90 degrees allowing the aircraft to turn inside of any other aircrafts radius and any missile's radius for that matter.

Point 5. As for the RCS of the intakes, yes it is large. But the Harrier is smaller than most jets and is harder to pick up visually (where most air to air combat takes place thanks to rules of engagement in most conflicts) so this is balanced out somewhat. The intake RCS only makes a difference if the engagement is head on or from a forward vector. No difference at all from the side or the rear. From above the Harrier has low RCS and low IR signature, which is why Harriers prefer to operate at low to medium altitudes where the engine has best performance (ie below the altitude of marauding enemy fighters).
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Point 1: ...
All very well and truly said.

Depsite whatever weaknesses...and all aircraft have weaknesses that are a result of the tradeoffs necessary to have them meet their specific design criteria, the Harrier's record speaks for itself. Both in terms of how widely spread it is operationally amongst different nations of the earth, and based on its combat record.

Thanks for the point by point explanation in detail.
 

Obi Wan Russell

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Further to point 4. I used to work for a former RAF F-4 driver who would wax lyrical on the finer points of air combat at the drop of a hat. Supersonic speed, as he used to say, was a great for getting 'to the scene of an accident' (ie intercepting an intruder) but after that all air to air combat is subsonic, and generally ends when one of the combattants runs out of fuel. If you are 'burning holes in the sky' then that will be you first and you've lost the encounter, even if you live to fly another day. Sea Harriers never needed supersonic capability because they would either be flying CAP up threat and could be directed to intercept raiders in time (600 knots will cover a lot of ground/sea in a short amount of time) or they would be launched from the deck at short notice to intercept radar contacts. An Invincible could launch four Sea Harriers in the same time a US CVN takes to launch one Tomcat/Hornet, although the latter aircraft are faster the SHARs have a head start and would intercept in a similar amount of time.

Remeber also that in 1982 a force of 28 'subsonic, high RCS, High IR signature toy fighter with no BVR weapons' defeated an land based air force with supersonic low RCS fighters that outnumbered them by at least 5 to 1. As Cmdr 'Sharkey' Ward (CO of 801 NAS aboard Invincible at the time) said: "We are not outnumbered, we are in a target-rich environment!". The most important characteristic of any fighter is not it's speed, but the quality of the pilots.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Further to point 4. I used to work for a former RAF F-4 driver who would wax lyrical on the finer points of air combat at the drop of a hat. Supersonic speed, as he used to say, was a great for getting 'to the scene of an accident' (ie intercepting an intruder) but after that all air to air combat is subsonic, and generally ends when one of the combattants runs out of fuel. If you are 'burning holes in the sky' then that will be you first and you've lost the encounter, even if you live to fly another day. Sea Harriers never needed supersonic capability because they would either be flying CAP up threat and could be directed to intercept raiders in time (600 knots will cover a lot of ground/sea in a short amount of time) or they would be launched from the deck at short notice to intercept radar contacts.
Gret info and strategy from folks who have been there.


An Invincible could launch four Sea Harriers in the same time a US CVN takes to launch one Tomcat/Hornet, although the latter aircraft are faster the SHARs have a head start and would intercept in a similar amount of time.
That would depend on how many cats were available for launch. If all four cats are geared up and the birds there and ready, a US carrier can put a lot of planes into the air very quickly.

Remeber also that in 1982 a force of 28 'subsonic, high RCS, High IR signature toy fighter with no BVR weapons' defeated an land based air force with supersonic low RCS fighters that outnumbered them by at least 5 to 1. As Cmdr 'Sharkey' Ward (CO of 801 NAS aboard Invincible at the time) said: "We are not outnumbered, we are in a target-rich environment!".
As I have said, the Harrier combat record is not to be scoffed at or made light of. It is an impressive record.

The most important characteristic of any fighter is not it's speed, but the quality of the pilots.
Amen and amen!
 
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