Exactly
QBZ-191 service rifle family
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
That hand guard by Gisselle in the US was created to mate the MR308 based M110A1 with MLOK accessories.The geometry of the handguard on the DMR reminds me somewhat of the handguard solution on the M110A1 DMR; an octogonal handguard with top rail and what looks like could be m-lok
Between the two of there was a folding stock it would have been on the shorter carbine.
longer barrel
What jumps out at me.
- This hand guard reminds me more of the Moe more than any other type. As does the pistol grip. Magpul after showing off the Masada concept introduced the MOE which was a line of AR and eventually AK furniture based off ideas from the Masada but from polymer. The Stock and features remind me of the Sig556 series.
- Thanks to having both images we can see that it borrows from both the AR and the AK. From the AR we have a straight line of recoil from muzzle to butt plate it’s a continuous line. That could mean a buffer tube then again it might not. The straight line may have come from feed back off the QST11.
- To fold or not to fold has questions and issues of its own. Folding adjustable stocks trade off a degree of toughness and length adjustment for the hinges.
- Same magazine as QBZ95, QBZ95-1, QBZ03, QST11.
- Barrel lengths rough guess 11” short 16 inch long.
- Despite clearly having bought into rails [About Damned Time] they didn’t go all in. Even though they appear to have M-Lok slots they only added 3-4 even then the visible 3 could just be for venting heat.
- The front of the rifle seems to have a ring shaped object my guess is the gas block is adjustable with a bullet as the tool.
- I am not sure about breaking this rifle open shotgun style. It might but the fulcrum pin at the front of the magazine well seems a little high up and the shape doesn’t seem quite right for it. I am not saying it’s not possible just have to see it field stripped. The pin could have more to do with the hand guard. Or even mounting a grenade launcher.
It seems like they've chosen to forgo a folding stock in this new service rifle, which is a bit of a surprise but not necessarily problematic.
It will be interesting to see if there is indeed a buffer tube in the stock or if they have the option of installing a folding stock as an option.
As far as rails go, I think having a full 12 o'clock rail and having mounting points at 3, 9 and presumably 6 o'clock for rail pieces is not bad for a mass service rifle.
Quad rails are obviously not that desirable, and having full m Lok or key mod at 3, 9 and 6 could have been useful but would've likely added extra machining costs.
What we see seems to be a fair compromise in handguard design that offers the full top rail experience with optional limited 3, 9 and 6 rails if needed, while keeping the rest of the handguard simple and smooth (but also somewhat easier to hold).
The nature of this rifle being somewhat modular means it should be an easy task to have different handguards for different roles if needed (SOF Vs infantry for example), and can be swapped out with ease.
It will be interesting to see if there is indeed a buffer tube in the stock or if they have the option of installing a folding stock as an option.
As far as rails go, I think having a full 12 o'clock rail and having mounting points at 3, 9 and presumably 6 o'clock for rail pieces is not bad for a mass service rifle.
Quad rails are obviously not that desirable, and having full m Lok or key mod at 3, 9 and 6 could have been useful but would've likely added extra machining costs.
What we see seems to be a fair compromise in handguard design that offers the full top rail experience with optional limited 3, 9 and 6 rails if needed, while keeping the rest of the handguard simple and smooth (but also somewhat easier to hold).
The nature of this rifle being somewhat modular means it should be an easy task to have different handguards for different roles if needed (SOF Vs infantry for example), and can be swapped out with ease.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
I would counter that although there may be some additional costs. The Full M Lok or Keymod rail slots would still allow a less cheese grater grip, with all the options of mounts well giving more ventilation for heat and they would also double as lightening cuts. So the rail is a little lighter making the rifle just a little lighter.
Full m Lok or full key mod are definitely less cheese grater than quad rails, however I think they are more cheese grater than having a smooth handguard.
Of course full m Lok or full key mod offers the benefits of being able to accommodate accessories easily on the whole handguard straight odd the bat, but your average infantryman probably won't need to do that. Add on the costs of manufacturing full m Lok or full key mod Vs a smooth handguard as well as the greater comfort of a smooth handguard Vs full m Lok/key mod, and I think they chose a good compromise with the handguard design.
12 o'clock rail, with smooth handguard at 3, 9 and presumably 6, but with 3, 6 and 9 also being able to accommodate short rail pieces.
Seems like a very reasonable and practical compromise for a wide issue handguard.
I fully expect more accessorised handguard options to emerge for certain users like SOF, which could include full m Lok or maybe even quad rails. (The DMR variant seems to have top rail with full m Lok, incidentally).
But as a baseline wide issue design, I think the handguard design they went with is a very good compromise and gives up very little while gaining a fair bit.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Combat rifles rarely sport “Smooth” hand guards. You need some texture to manipulate the weapon in wet conditions. Hence the rubbing on the hand guard of the Sig that I posted.
That said I won’t fight you on costs as being blunt I think cost savings may have been the driver here.
The problem with quad rails is they are heavy and rough to the hand. They were designed for mechanical grip not biological Adding on grip guards makes them larger and more awkward to hold but more comfortable.
The key advantage of the M-Lok or key mod is that the negative space rail system doesn’t need the extra girth.
Although it is still a rail system the slots are narrow enough that in firing they don’t effect the hand the same way. In fact they emulate the carbon fiber types normally found on custom built sports/Competition shooter rifles.
to date few rifles in general issue sport M-Lok rail systems as their main hand guards but it’s more a matter of having already established Quad rails for the past decade and a half. Changing designs to often has a way of slowing things down.
The advantage for adding them now when a rifle is emerging as standard issue would be that down the line you don’t need to make custom parts and rifles for the SF guys.
They can just pick up standard issue and use it. By being standardized the price of the cuts would be reduced by being part of the package as opposed to after market. The more you make the less it costs to do. Although aluminum still costs more.
That said I think part of what might have Been missed in saying is the materials come in here.
I mentioned the MOE hand guard from magpul In point #1 that is a polymer hand guard.
This hand guard is clearly some form of polymer synthetic as well where most full rails are metallic.
MOE Short for Magpul Original Equpment was meant to be offered as a replacement for the stock round type hand guard on AR rifles that had been on it since the M16A2 had been standardized.
The MOE still in production today costs about $35 for a carbine length with there slots.
a full rail of aluminum M-lok by a quality maker is easily $200+ Maybe knock the price down for a volume discount. But even at a generous 50% off, $100 is > $35.
materials here, polymer is cheap.
By going to the polymer the PLA may have felt that it did double by keeping the weight down and cost of manufacturing. Rather than laser cutting aluminum they molded polymer.
We often forget that a driving factor from the birth of the assault rifle from the STG 44 to the latest AR is cost. It cost the Germans in WW2 a hell of a lot less to stamp sheet metal receivers of Sturmgewher than it did to forge Kar98K. sheet metal was the cheap plastic of the day. Germany was constantly running short of critical metals needed for high quality steel used in making guns. So a few small parts in barrels and bolts surrounded by low end sheet metal went farther than a batch of Kar98.
The AR15 was space age in its day but is still made of aluminum, polymers and only a small amount of steel. At the time in the 50s Aviation has mastered cheap aluminum forging and Bakelite plastic was cheap.
G36 was polymer as far as the eye can see because the polymers used cost pennies.
but trade off is polymer isn’t as strong as aluminum. And aluminum is cheaper than carbon fiber which is both lighter and stronger.
That said I won’t fight you on costs as being blunt I think cost savings may have been the driver here.
The problem with quad rails is they are heavy and rough to the hand. They were designed for mechanical grip not biological Adding on grip guards makes them larger and more awkward to hold but more comfortable.
The key advantage of the M-Lok or key mod is that the negative space rail system doesn’t need the extra girth.
Although it is still a rail system the slots are narrow enough that in firing they don’t effect the hand the same way. In fact they emulate the carbon fiber types normally found on custom built sports/Competition shooter rifles.
to date few rifles in general issue sport M-Lok rail systems as their main hand guards but it’s more a matter of having already established Quad rails for the past decade and a half. Changing designs to often has a way of slowing things down.
The advantage for adding them now when a rifle is emerging as standard issue would be that down the line you don’t need to make custom parts and rifles for the SF guys.
They can just pick up standard issue and use it. By being standardized the price of the cuts would be reduced by being part of the package as opposed to after market. The more you make the less it costs to do. Although aluminum still costs more.
That said I think part of what might have Been missed in saying is the materials come in here.
I mentioned the MOE hand guard from magpul In point #1 that is a polymer hand guard.
This hand guard is clearly some form of polymer synthetic as well where most full rails are metallic.
MOE Short for Magpul Original Equpment was meant to be offered as a replacement for the stock round type hand guard on AR rifles that had been on it since the M16A2 had been standardized.
The MOE still in production today costs about $35 for a carbine length with there slots.
a full rail of aluminum M-lok by a quality maker is easily $200+ Maybe knock the price down for a volume discount. But even at a generous 50% off, $100 is > $35.
materials here, polymer is cheap.
By going to the polymer the PLA may have felt that it did double by keeping the weight down and cost of manufacturing. Rather than laser cutting aluminum they molded polymer.
We often forget that a driving factor from the birth of the assault rifle from the STG 44 to the latest AR is cost. It cost the Germans in WW2 a hell of a lot less to stamp sheet metal receivers of Sturmgewher than it did to forge Kar98K. sheet metal was the cheap plastic of the day. Germany was constantly running short of critical metals needed for high quality steel used in making guns. So a few small parts in barrels and bolts surrounded by low end sheet metal went farther than a batch of Kar98.
The AR15 was space age in its day but is still made of aluminum, polymers and only a small amount of steel. At the time in the 50s Aviation has mastered cheap aluminum forging and Bakelite plastic was cheap.
G36 was polymer as far as the eye can see because the polymers used cost pennies.
but trade off is polymer isn’t as strong as aluminum. And aluminum is cheaper than carbon fiber which is both lighter and stronger.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
SinoSoldier
Colonel
The cat's out of the bag.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Okay it’s not Mlok it’s just cooling vents.
Looks like the hand guard is screwed on with an Allen wrench.
Looks like the hand guard is screwed on with an Allen wrench.
Is that a camera/buttons on that vertical grip that connects to the helmet?