Chinese Aviation Industry

Orthan said:

And do you think that china will let russia get all the development themselves? if china doesnt get expertise from the program, expect it to eventually and quietly to grind to a halt. China cares to its interests first.

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And in the meantime, valuable time and money is wasted, which wouldn't be the case if China went at it alone in the first place.

Blackstone said:

Same reason US objected Germany's robot company sale on grounds of security to keep critical technology/process China lacks away from it.

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What is the name of Germany's robot company that US objected?
Can you tell us, because I think you wrongly read Aixtron deal.
If you can't name it then it is the second mistake about " company " you made, and then you go south and north to make excuse like you said Sinopec is a loss company

The inaugural flight of the Chinese seaplane AG600 is scheduled by the end of July.

nugroho said:

What is the name of Germany's robot company that US objected?
Can you tell us, because I think you wrongly read Aixtron deal.
If you can't name it then it is the second mistake about " company " you made, and then you go south and north to make excuse like you said Sinopec is a loss company

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What are you talking about? In what context was Sinopec a "loss company?" Link the post.

The Kuka robotics sale was German government concerned with tech transfer to China and not US. I was mistaken on who objected. Sale went through in the end anyway.

Is not US business what happens with non US companies. Stop doing that bullshit.

Equation said:

But China has a way bigger market than Russia to successfully go it alone. Why do you think Boeing and Airbus depends on that market so much? If they just sell it to the US and European market alone, that would not be sufficient profit to sustain the program.

Now as to why Russia and China are partnering on this project? I don't know, probably political. Russia needs China economic clout and China's good relations with the EU and US without any sanctions to sale airplanes parts and services from. Otherwise Russia is under major economic sanctions that prevents it to be able to access not only major market, but services and trades as well. The question for Russia is keeping the annexation of Crimea worth it?

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it's not political. China can learn a lot from Russia still in civil aviation in design, testing and production. China concluded it has more to gain by doing this as a partnership rather than going alone. I think COMAC would know this better than armchair QBs in this forum.

MS-21 and SSJ both have very advanced elements in their design, which shows Russia still has a lot to offer in civil aviation

tphuang said:

it's not political. China can learn a lot from Russia still in civil aviation in design, testing and production. China concluded it has more to gain by doing this as a partnership rather than going alone. I think COMAC would know this better than armchair QBs in this forum.

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Of course the main reason for this joint project is the gathering of know-how from the part of china. But IMO there is also a certain intention from the part of china to get russia to its side. Most of all, i think that for these reasons, i dont think that china will get this plane in numbers, if it get it at all. I dont think that china will want to share its huge civil aircraft market with russia.

And i think that russia know this.

tphuang said:

it's not political. China can learn a lot from Russia still in civil aviation in design, testing and production. China concluded it has more to gain by doing this as a partnership rather than going alone. I think COMAC would know this better than armchair QBs in this forum.

MS-21 and SSJ both have very advanced elements in their design, which shows Russia still has a lot to offer in civil aviation

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Feng, I think it's more political than not. I say that because to believe it's not political, you'll also have to believe China would rather partner with Russia than Western aviation companies to gain experience, expertise, and ToTs. That's a hard argument to make, so the most likely scenario is China rather work with both Russia and Western countries, but can't, so Plan B is work with Russia with no Western involvement.

Orthan said:

Of course the main reason for this joint project is the gathering of know-how from the part of china. But IMO there is also a certain intention from the part of china to get russia to its side. Most of all, i think that for these reasons, i dont think that china will get this plane in numbers, if it get it at all. I dont think that china will want to share its huge civil aircraft market with russia.

And i think that russia know this.

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Why not? Take car industry for example, Audi is the number one luxury German car sold in China for the past many decades and probably will remain so for some time, the other brands from VW (Passat, Golf and Bora) are among the top selling cars. VW (owner of Audi) has a 49/51 (almost 50/50) JV with FAW, if China is willing to share its huge civil car market with Germany for decades and the foreseeable future, why not share aircraft market with Russia? If one day, Sino-German relationship can reach somewhere like Anglo-American, or Franco-German, it is equally possible the Sino-Russo relationship reach the same level. By that time, C929 would be just like Airbus using UK and US engines, that is to say a integrated Chinese and Russian industry complex.

The projection and prediction of the future/direction of this program only depends on how one wish to see the Sino-Russo relationship in the long run. Some Chinese and most westerners (including SK and Japanese) don't like a friendly strategically relationship between China and Russia, but I don't think that wish or view is shared by majority of Chinese, nor the Chinese leadership.

Blackstone said:

Feng, I think it's more political than not. I say that because to believe it's not political, you'll also have to believe China would rather partner with Russia than Western aviation companies to gain experience, expertise, and ToTs. That's a hard argument to make, so the most likely scenario is China rather work with both Russia and Western countries, but can't, so Plan B is work with Russia with no Western involvement.

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It is not a political thing it is an economical thing.

Europe already has the A-350, A-340 and A-380, China only can be a supplier of parts to such projects.

the USA has already the B-777, the B-787 so the Chinese can only be suppliers too.

Russia has Il-96, but it is an old design, it has 4 engines and a pedigree from 1982, from the Il-86.

It is old, Russia has no B-777 or B-787 and A-380 equivalent.

So for Russia, the Chinese money and Market are the main reason for investment, for China is the share in the project, with Western powers it will have a minority Share, with Russia a 50% share plus the possibility of building 50% of a larger aircraft with much less investment than going alone