New Type98/99 MBT thread

MadMax

Junior Member
From what iv'e read the carousel auto loader is in the most well armored spot on the tank and the main reason for the now infamous turret flying of the tank into the air is because the extra ammo and propelent not in the auto loader is left just lying a round in the fighting compartment waiting to be ignited. if this is in fact true wouldnt storing the extra ammo at least the explosive ammo either in blow out compartments or externaly on the tank greatly improve its survivability?
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
From what iv'e read the carousel auto loader is in the most well armored spot on the tank and the main reason for the now infamous turret flying of the tank into the air is because the extra ammo and propelent not in the auto loader is left just lying a round in the fighting compartment waiting to be ignited. if this is in fact true wouldnt storing the extra ammo at least the explosive ammo either in blow out compartments or externaly on the tank greatly improve its survivability?

I think on the T-64, they store ammo below the turrent so it'd have more protection. Theortically the same could be done with older Soviet-designed tanks, if you carried fewer rounds of ammunition.

I have this weird suspicion that the Iraq war was prolly the last time we'd see thousands of MBT's go head to head against each other over flat land. As human population grows, cities have turned into urban sprawl. The future battlefield may resemble tightly-packed suburbs of Gaza, or neighborhoods packed with 2-5 story tall condos.

Under such conditions, I think the future MBT will evolve to pack more protection on all sides - top, bottom, rear. It's not just the other MBT in front of you anymore, today you have to worry about some guy popping up on the side with an ATGM, or cel-phone activated bombs that'd set off a cluster of 155mm artillery shells under you. Storing tank ammo in separate compartment away from the crew will be much more critical in crew survival.
 

Obcession

Junior Member
To reply Adeptitus:

What use would tanks have if the future of warfare lies in cities? As you said, if we just simply add armour to all sides of a tank, would that not make a tank too heavy to travel on city roads? Even if you come up with a new type of light but effective armor, tanks will be useless in neighbourhoods of 2-5 level condos, with its very limited main gun elevation.

Luckily, we still have places such as Mongolia where tanks can prove their worth.

Now, back to the discussion of the Type-99. Does the Type-99 truly require a 1500HP engine to be installed? It's only 50 tons. I'm speculating that an indigenous 1200HP engine, persay, would be cheaper to field, reducing the overall cost of the tank. Now, if you take away some ERA, remove the lazer dazzler, and other unnecessary gadgets, wouldn't you have a tank that'll be cheap enough to be mass produced and fielded?

"if this is in fact true wouldnt storing the extra ammo at least the explosive ammo either in blow out compartments or externaly on the tank greatly improve its survivability?"

Externally on the tank? That just seems dangerous to me...

About the sabot round: that's a type 99. Which leads to my other question: how long have the PLA had the ability to field sabot rounds? Earlier speculation points to the '98.

The type 99 has a smoothbore gun. Fielding sabots on a smoothbore gun? Maybe we should ask the PLA why they chose to do so.
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
U.S army TRADOC has come to the realization that the lighter armoured vehicles such as the striker are a huge mistake in urban warfare. HOWEVER, They have also come to the realization that the M1 Abrams and Bradley at 70+ tons and 30+ tons have and are operating in dense urban areas of iraq with far less casualties than the lighter Hummers and other AFV's.

No my friends the day of the heavy tank is no where near over. They are doing great jobs in iraq. The newer versions with the TUSK upgrade are preforming even better. So with that in mind the Type-98/99 at 54 tones is and will do ok on the urban battle field today and tomorrow.

The Type 98 with its ERA/composite armour/and cast under armour is effective and myself and friends in the army feel that the Type-98 is probably a better protected tank than the T-80U or T-90. As for a threat levels in the U.S army we would rate the Type-98/99 as a greater threat than that of the any Russian T series tanks. The insiders tell me that the russians are stuborn and stuck on the flawed design of the T-72-90 base design. IF you like pressure cookers go ahead and take one into combat.

In the future I would wager we will see a new designed tank for the PRC based off the French Leclerc....hint hint...cheers ute.
 

challenge

Banned Idiot
U.S army TRADOC has come to the realization that the lighter armoured vehicles such as the striker are a huge mistake in urban warfare. HOWEVER, They have also come to the realization that the M1 Abrams and Bradley at 70+ tons and 30+ tons have and are operating in dense urban areas of iraq with far less casualties than the lighter Hummers and other AFV's.

No my friends the day of the heavy tank is no where near over. They are doing great jobs in iraq. The newer versions with the TUSK upgrade are preforming even better. So with that in mind the Type-98/99 at 54 tones is and will do ok on the urban battle field today and tomorrow.

The Type 98 with its ERA/composite armour/and cast under armour is effective and myself and friends in the army feel that the Type-98 is probably a better protected tank than the T-80U or T-90. As for a threat levels in the U.S army we would rate the Type-98/99 as a greater threat than that of the any Russian T series tanks. The insiders tell me that the russians are stuborn and stuck on the flawed design of the T-72-90 base design. IF you like pressure cookers go ahead and take one into combat.

In the future I would wager we will see a new designed tank for the PRC based off the French Leclerc....hint hint...cheers ute.

according to steven zaloga,expert on soviet weapon system,report that after 1994 chenchya debacle,Russian army chief order all the 300 plus T-72/80 tanks destroyed in Chenchya conflict be brought back to russia for examination and analysis.there analysis are identical to israeli and NATO report.
One T-72 tank was hit in back of the engine compartment by RPG,the slug penetrate engine compartment and hit the carousel loading creating chain reaction that brew up the tank.
without" compartmentization"similiar to abrams,type-99 like T-72/80 suffer similiar fate for the tank crews.
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
yes, If the Type 99 is penetrated and the ammo storage is hit on the Type 99 it will suffer from a "pop top syndrome":) However it is widely believed in the tanker circles that I converse in that the Type 99 has better armour protection than that of the T-90. The testing and evaluation processes within the PLA is very good and they tend not to field equipment that does not meet certain battlefield specifications. Now the Russians on the overhand are plagued by corruption and cronyism that tends to field bad equipment. Now please understand this is not all the time given the performance of russian ATGW systems in the Israeli-Hezbollah war.

I think over all without completely coming out with a redesigned western style MBT in the 60+ ton range the PRC has taken the T-64-90 base design and have produced the best possible tank it can given the flawed design of that series....cheers ute
 

FSMonster

Just Hatched
Registered Member
To reply Adeptitus:

About the sabot round: that's a type 99. Which leads to my other question: how long have the PLA had the ability to field sabot rounds? Earlier speculation points to the '98.

The type 99 has a smoothbore gun. Fielding sabots on a smoothbore gun? Maybe we should ask the PLA why they chose to do so.

Why would you be so surprised about sabot rounds in a smoothbore gun? That is a perfect match you should know. Every 120 and 125 mm tank gun is smoothbore (except British) and guess what, they all field sabot rounds.
Unless you are suggesting that up until now, the PLA has never used APFSDS' and only included HEAT projectiles in their inventory?
 

Aero

Just Hatched
Registered Member
From what iv'e read the carousel auto loader is in the most well armored spot on the tank and the main reason for the now infamous turret flying of the tank into the air is because the extra ammo and propelent not in the auto loader is left just lying a round in the fighting compartment waiting to be ignited. if this is in fact true wouldnt storing the extra ammo at least the explosive ammo either in blow out compartments or externaly on the tank greatly improve its survivability?

You’re right on this point, despite what many analysts have been saying, really, just think about it, which is safer, placing ammos in the hull where they’re protect by layers of amour or in compartment behind turret? It is common knowledge that around 80% of hits are on the turret, in fact this design on many western MBT is mainly to facilitate rapid loading, not so much as preventing second impacts.

While blow out compartment is a good design feature for safety, however, I believe the single most important factor in the prevention of second impact is the role played by modern Fire Detection and Suppression System, I don’t know why it is rarely mentioned by people, but this is the technology that made such contrasting outcome between Soviet-designed tanks and Israeli-western tanks on the battlefield. Second impact occurred because old T series tanks lacked this system which could very effectively deal with problem; this was one of the major combat conclusions of the Israeli-Lebanese war in early eighties. You may or may not believes all those stories about China-Israel military cooperation, but this is one piece of technology that China definitely got it from their friends in Tel Aviv back in the eighties. Also should be mentioned here is the another technique pioneered by the Israeli, that is individual protective casing for each rounds stored inside a tank, together with FDSS, these technologies prevented second impact on Israeli tanks and saved the lives of many its crew, it is advisable in my opinion not only for China but many western tank designers to follow suit, yes, it is costly to have such protective casing for every single round, but a team of well-trained and motivated crew is worth much more.

Lastly, about that fixation with T-72, just imagine this, give T-72 to US force and M1s to Iraq, now, US has complete air dominance with A-10 and AH-64 firing those amour piecing 30mm rounds and Hellfires above you, complete battlefield situation awarenence so any attempt of tactical maneuvering from your side are detected, complete CI3 about where your amour groups are, so you are attacked from all side before you’re even aware of it, do you really think those M1s in Iraqi hands are going to perform better than T-72s. When strategical and tactical circumstance are overwhelmingly working against you, it really doesn’t matter if you tanks have that wonderful little piece of technology which could prevent the turret being blown toward the sky when you’re hit. :)
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
To reply Adeptitus:
What use would tanks have if the future of warfare lies in cities? As you said, if we just simply add armour to all sides of a tank, would that not make a tank too heavy to travel on city roads? Even if you come up with a new type of light but effective armor, tanks will be useless in neighbourhoods of 2-5 level condos, with its very limited main gun elevation.
Luckily, we still have places such as Mongolia where tanks can prove their worth.

I'm picturing tanks modified for urban combat, supported by heavy APC's. In the Israeli model, Merkava MBT with Achzarit HAPC's rolling into Gaza strip or Southern Lebanon.

They're not perfect solutions, but offer good protection and high crew survial rate. In comparison, a RPG penatration to IFV or APC may result in 100% fatality rate in the back compartment.

Here's an article on the urbanization of human population:
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Mongolia has a lot of flat, empty terrain that's suitable for tank combat, but it's not where the valuable assets lay in the PRC. In the unlikely event of a land-war in China, the invader would seek to dominate the heavily populated coastal provinces, like the Japanese did in WW2. Or, if the PRC is obligated to send troops on UN mission in the future, they may end up in a heavily populated slum where rival factions duke it out with RPG's and car bombs.
 
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