Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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Brumby

Major
Good words to live by for individuals. But hollow when it comes to quarterly results.

I don't know about other multinationals but for US multinationals, the CEO in the US is ultimately responsible for any corruptive practices conducted overseas by their operations. Under certain conditions they go to jail. There are very specific legal and operating procedures put in place.
 

T-U-P

The Punisher
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
AssassinsMace and Blackstone: Stop this argument, let it go, and move on. This has gone way beyond who's right and who's wrong.
 

texx1

Junior Member
I don't know about other multinationals but for US multinationals, the CEO in the US is ultimately responsible for any corruptive practices conducted overseas by their operations. Under certain conditions they go to jail. There are very specific legal and operating procedures put in place.

This is kinda OT especially since moderators have already visited thread. So this is my last post regarding this matter. US CEOs can be held responsible under Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. But most charges are settled without jail time or suspended sentences. Also it is difficult to prove corruption in multinationals as whistleblowers are hard to come by. And large US corporations can exert significant political pressure.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Super Moderator
Registered Member
Not sure how you guys feel about Martin Jacques.

I don't want to agree with this opinion about HKers feeling superior or hubris to MLers (at least not a majority of HKers feel that way -- and frustration and spite at MLers doing publicly distasteful things are understandable), and there has already been much debate about just how much China played in increasing HK's wealth over since 1978.

However I agree that HK's future does lie with China, and that China won't accept a candidate which is hostile to Chinese rule (i.e.: wanting independence and seeking to subvert central government on the mainland or through foreign affairs).

More importantly, despite a few attempts to exert greater control over HK in recent years, the bulk of the system appears to have remained autonomous of beijing's direct control.

If HKers realize their future does still lie with China and within Chinese sovereignty, then hopes of more expressive universal sufferage may be likely. As I've said, they'll need to change their image from one of being anti-China/anti-CCP/pro-democracy to one of anti-CY and co/anti-independence/anti-subversion/pro-democracy


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China is Hong Kong’s future – not its enemy
Protesters cry democracy but most are driven by dislocation and resentment at mainlanders’ success

Martin Jacques
The Guardian, Tuesday 30 September 2014 14.45 EDT

The upheaval sweeping Hong Kong is more complicated than on the surface it might appear. Protests have erupted over direct elections to be held in three years’ time; democracy activists claim that China’s plans will allow it to screen out the candidates it doesn’t want.

It should be remembered, however, that for 155 years until its handover to China in 1997, Hong Kong was a British colony, forcibly taken from China at the end of the first opium war. All its 28 subsequent governors were appointed by the British government. Although Hong Kong came, over time, to enjoy the rule of law and the right to protest, under the British it never enjoyed even a semblance of democracy. It was ruled from 6,000 miles away in London. The idea of any kind of democracy was first introduced by the Chinese government. In 1990 the latter adopted the Basic Law, which included the commitment that in 2017 the territory’s chief executive would be elected by universal suffrage; it also spelt out that the nomination of candidates would be a matter for a nominating committee.

This proposal should be seen in the context of what was a highly innovative – and, to westerners, completely unfamiliar – constitutional approach by the Chinese. The idea of “one country, two systems” under which Hong Kong would maintain its distinctive legal and political system for 50 years. Hong Kong would, in these respects, remain singularly different from the rest of China, while at the same time being subject to Chinese sovereignty. In contrast, the western view has always embraced the principle of “one country, one system” – as, for example, in German unification. But China is more a civilisation-state than a nation-state: historically it would have been impossible to hold together such a vast country without allowing much greater flexibility. Its thinking – “one civilisation, many systems” – was shaped by its very different history.

In the 17 years since the handover, China has, whatever the gainsayers might suggest, overwhelmingly honoured its commitment to the principle of one country, two systems. The legal system remains based on English law, the rule of law prevails, and the right to demonstrate, as we have seen so vividly in recent days, is still very much intact. The Chinese meant what they offered. Indeed, it can reasonably be argued that they went to extremes in their desire to be unobtrusive: sotto voce might be an apt way of describing China’s approach to Hong Kong. At the time of the handover, and in the three years I lived in Hong Kong from 1998, it was difficult to identify any visible signs of Chinese rule: I recall seeing just one Chinese flag.

Notwithstanding this, Hong Kong – and its relationship with China – was in fact changing rapidly. Herein lies a fundamental reason for the present unrest: the growing sense of dislocation among a section of Hong Kong’s population. During the 20 years or so prior to the handover, the territory enjoyed its golden era – not because of the British but because of the Chinese. In 1978 Deng Xiaoping embarked on his reform programme, and China began to grow rapidly. It was still, however, a relatively closed society. Hong Kong was the beneficiary – it became the entry point to China, and as a result attracted scores of multinational companies and banks that wanted to gain access to the Chinese market. Hong Kong got rich because of China. It also fed an attitude of hubris and arrogance. The Hong Kong Chinese came to enjoy a much higher standard of living than the mainlanders. They looked down on the latter as poor, ignorant and uncouth peasants, as greatly their inferior. They preferred – up to a point – to identify with westerners rather than mainlanders, not because of democracy (the British had never allowed them any) but primarily because of money and the status that went with it.

Much has changed since 1997. The Chinese economy has grown many times, the standard of living of the Chinese likewise. If you want to access the Chinese market nowadays, why move to Hong Kong when you can go straight to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Chengdu and a host of other major cities? Hong Kong has lost its role as the gateway to China. Where previously Hong Kong was China’s unrivalled financial centre, now it is increasingly dwarfed by Shanghai. Until recently, Hong Kong was by far China’s largest port: now it has been surpassed by Shanghai and Shenzhen, and Guangzhou will shortly overtake it.

Two decades ago westerners comprised the bulk of Hong Kong’s tourists, today mainlanders account for the overwhelming majority, many of them rather more wealthy than most Hong Kong Chinese. Likewise, an increasing number of mainlanders have moved to the territory – which is a growing source of resentment. If China needed Hong Kong in an earlier period, this is no longer nearly as true as it was. On the contrary, without China, Hong Kong would be in deep trouble.

Understandably, many Hong Kong Chinese are struggling to come to terms with these new realities. They are experiencing a crisis of identity and a sense of displacement. They know their future is inextricably bound up with China but that is very different from embracing the fact. Yet there is no alternative: China is the future of Hong Kong.

All these issues, in a most complex way, are being played out in the present arguments over universal suffrage. Hong Kong is divided. About half the population support China’s proposals on universal suffrage, either because they think they are a step forward or because they take the pragmatic view that they will happen anyway. The other half is opposed. A relatively small minority of these have never really accepted Chinese sovereignty. Anson Chan, the former head of the civil service under Chris Patten, and Jimmy Lai, a prominent businessman, fall into this category, and so do some of the Democrats. Then there is a much larger group, among them many students, who oppose Beijing’s plans for more idealistic reasons.

One scenario can be immediately discounted. China will not accept the election of a chief executive hostile to Chinese rule. If the present unrest continues, then a conceivable backstop might be to continue indefinitely with the status quo, which, from the point of view of democratic change, both in Hong Kong and China, would be a retrograde step. More likely is that the Chinese government will persist with its proposals, perhaps with minor concessions, and anticipate that the opposition will slowly abate. This remains the most likely scenario.

An underlying weakness of Chinese rule has nevertheless been revealed by these events. One of the most striking features of Hong Kong remains the relative absence of a mainland political presence. The Chinese have persisted with what can best be described as a hands-off approach. Their relationship to the administration is either indirect or behind the scenes. Strange as it may seem, the Chinese are not involved in the cut and thrust of political argument. They will need to find more effective ways of making their views clear and arguing their case – not in Beijing but in Hong Kong.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
I like Martin Jacques, ever since I saw his presentation about China on TED a few years ago. I don't always agree with him, but I always enjoy listening to his speeches, reading his writings, and watching his presentations. In the article you linked, I think he's right about China being Hong Kong's future rather than enemy.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
It's no different from the countries that are in dispute with China but they don't want trade to be affected. I bet these protestors in Hong Kong still want to be the gateway to China.
 
Not sure how you guys feel about Martin Jacques.

I don't want to agree with this opinion about HKers feeling superior or hubris to MLers (at least not a majority of HKers feel that way -- and frustration and spite at MLers doing publicly distasteful things are understandable), and there has already been much debate about just how much China played in increasing HK's wealth over since 1978.

However I agree that HK's future does lie with China, and that China won't accept a candidate which is hostile to Chinese rule (i.e.: wanting independence and seeking to subvert central government on the mainland or through foreign affairs).

More importantly, despite a few attempts to exert greater control over HK in recent years, the bulk of the system appears to have remained autonomous of beijing's direct control.

If HKers realize their future does still lie with China and within Chinese sovereignty, then hopes of more expressive universal sufferage may be likely. As I've said, they'll need to change their image from one of being anti-China/anti-CCP/pro-democracy to one of anti-CY and co/anti-independence/anti-subversion/pro-democracy


---


China is Hong Kong’s future – not its enemy
Protesters cry democracy but most are driven by dislocation and resentment at mainlanders’ success

Martin Jacques
The Guardian, Tuesday 30 September 2014 14.45 EDT

The upheaval sweeping Hong Kong is more complicated than on the surface it might appear. Protests have erupted over direct elections to be held in three years’ time; democracy activists claim that China’s plans will allow it to screen out the candidates it doesn’t want.

It should be remembered, however, that for 155 years until its handover to China in 1997, Hong Kong was a British colony, forcibly taken from China at the end of the first opium war. All its 28 subsequent governors were appointed by the British government. Although Hong Kong came, over time, to enjoy the rule of law and the right to protest, under the British it never enjoyed even a semblance of democracy. It was ruled from 6,000 miles away in London. The idea of any kind of democracy was first introduced by the Chinese government. In 1990 the latter adopted the Basic Law, which included the commitment that in 2017 the territory’s chief executive would be elected by universal suffrage; it also spelt out that the nomination of candidates would be a matter for a nominating committee.

This proposal should be seen in the context of what was a highly innovative – and, to westerners, completely unfamiliar – constitutional approach by the Chinese. The idea of “one country, two systems” under which Hong Kong would maintain its distinctive legal and political system for 50 years. Hong Kong would, in these respects, remain singularly different from the rest of China, while at the same time being subject to Chinese sovereignty. In contrast, the western view has always embraced the principle of “one country, one system” – as, for example, in German unification. But China is more a civilisation-state than a nation-state: historically it would have been impossible to hold together such a vast country without allowing much greater flexibility. Its thinking – “one civilisation, many systems” – was shaped by its very different history.

In the 17 years since the handover, China has, whatever the gainsayers might suggest, overwhelmingly honoured its commitment to the principle of one country, two systems. The legal system remains based on English law, the rule of law prevails, and the right to demonstrate, as we have seen so vividly in recent days, is still very much intact. The Chinese meant what they offered. Indeed, it can reasonably be argued that they went to extremes in their desire to be unobtrusive: sotto voce might be an apt way of describing China’s approach to Hong Kong. At the time of the handover, and in the three years I lived in Hong Kong from 1998, it was difficult to identify any visible signs of Chinese rule: I recall seeing just one Chinese flag.

Notwithstanding this, Hong Kong – and its relationship with China – was in fact changing rapidly. Herein lies a fundamental reason for the present unrest: the growing sense of dislocation among a section of Hong Kong’s population. During the 20 years or so prior to the handover, the territory enjoyed its golden era – not because of the British but because of the Chinese. In 1978 Deng Xiaoping embarked on his reform programme, and China began to grow rapidly. It was still, however, a relatively closed society. Hong Kong was the beneficiary – it became the entry point to China, and as a result attracted scores of multinational companies and banks that wanted to gain access to the Chinese market. Hong Kong got rich because of China. It also fed an attitude of hubris and arrogance. The Hong Kong Chinese came to enjoy a much higher standard of living than the mainlanders. They looked down on the latter as poor, ignorant and uncouth peasants, as greatly their inferior. They preferred – up to a point – to identify with westerners rather than mainlanders, not because of democracy (the British had never allowed them any) but primarily because of money and the status that went with it.

Much has changed since 1997. The Chinese economy has grown many times, the standard of living of the Chinese likewise. If you want to access the Chinese market nowadays, why move to Hong Kong when you can go straight to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Chengdu and a host of other major cities? Hong Kong has lost its role as the gateway to China. Where previously Hong Kong was China’s unrivalled financial centre, now it is increasingly dwarfed by Shanghai. Until recently, Hong Kong was by far China’s largest port: now it has been surpassed by Shanghai and Shenzhen, and Guangzhou will shortly overtake it.

Two decades ago westerners comprised the bulk of Hong Kong’s tourists, today mainlanders account for the overwhelming majority, many of them rather more wealthy than most Hong Kong Chinese. Likewise, an increasing number of mainlanders have moved to the territory – which is a growing source of resentment. If China needed Hong Kong in an earlier period, this is no longer nearly as true as it was. On the contrary, without China, Hong Kong would be in deep trouble.

Understandably, many Hong Kong Chinese are struggling to come to terms with these new realities. They are experiencing a crisis of identity and a sense of displacement. They know their future is inextricably bound up with China but that is very different from embracing the fact. Yet there is no alternative: China is the future of Hong Kong.

All these issues, in a most complex way, are being played out in the present arguments over universal suffrage. Hong Kong is divided. About half the population support China’s proposals on universal suffrage, either because they think they are a step forward or because they take the pragmatic view that they will happen anyway. The other half is opposed. A relatively small minority of these have never really accepted Chinese sovereignty. Anson Chan, the former head of the civil service under Chris Patten, and Jimmy Lai, a prominent businessman, fall into this category, and so do some of the Democrats. Then there is a much larger group, among them many students, who oppose Beijing’s plans for more idealistic reasons.

One scenario can be immediately discounted. China will not accept the election of a chief executive hostile to Chinese rule. If the present unrest continues, then a conceivable backstop might be to continue indefinitely with the status quo, which, from the point of view of democratic change, both in Hong Kong and China, would be a retrograde step. More likely is that the Chinese government will persist with its proposals, perhaps with minor concessions, and anticipate that the opposition will slowly abate. This remains the most likely scenario.

An underlying weakness of Chinese rule has nevertheless been revealed by these events. One of the most striking features of Hong Kong remains the relative absence of a mainland political presence. The Chinese have persisted with what can best be described as a hands-off approach. Their relationship to the administration is either indirect or behind the scenes. Strange as it may seem, the Chinese are not involved in the cut and thrust of political argument. They will need to find more effective ways of making their views clear and arguing their case – not in Beijing but in Hong Kong.

Informed and accurate. The protesters need to get real and the PRC government needs to do some outreach in HK.
 
how are things, airsuperiority? I just drank my early-morning coffee ... that link still works for me!
[video=youtube;w4q8fs8gTIs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w4q8fs8gTIs[/video]

right now I see less people directly on the street ... is it because of the weather (I checked: at noon, 85 F, 80% humidity)? I wonder what's going to happen now, first I thought it was a FAQ :) so I quickly checked
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

but it ends with


so what does airsuperiority think?

Hello! Partially, although I've heard that some went elsewhere, which led people calling out for volunteers to quickly return to Admiralty(the district).
 
how are things, airsuperiority? I just drank my early-morning coffee ... that link still works for me!
[video=youtube;w4q8fs8gTIs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w4q8fs8gTIs[/video]

right now I see less people directly on the street ... is it because of the weather (I checked: at noon, 85 F, 80% humidity)? I wonder what's going to happen now, first I thought it was a FAQ :) so I quickly checked
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

but it ends with


so what does airsuperiority think?

Oh and honestly I don't know too. I'd like to hope for the best, but deep inside I know it's a very hard battle to win and fight. I'm genuinely worried.
 
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