2014 Ukrainian Maidan Revolt: News, Views, Photos & Videos

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Miragedriver

Miragedriver

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Ukraine strikes at east; 2 helicopters shot down

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SLOVYANSK, Ukraine (AP) — Two Ukrainian helicopters were shot down Friday as Ukraine launched its first major offensive against the pro-Russia forces that have seized government buildings in the east. The Kremlin said Kiev's move against the insurgents "destroyed" hopes for peace in the region.

Fighting broke out around dawn near Slovyansk, a city 160 kilometers (100 miles) from the Russian border that has become the focus of the armed insurgency against Ukraine's interim government. Two helicopter crew were killed in the crashes, both sides said, and a pro-Russia militiaman was reported killed.

One of the helicopters was hit by a surface-to-air missile, the Ukrainian Security Service said, adding that the sophisticated weapon undercut Russia's claims the city was simply under the control of armed locals. The agency said its forces were fighting "highly skilled foreign military men" in Slovyansk.

Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman said the offensive "effectively destroyed the last hope for the implementation of the Geneva agreements" that aimed to defuse the crisis. A day earlier Putin warned Ukraine not to move against the insurgents and said it should withdraw its military from eastern and southern regions.
Ukraine, a nation of 46 million, is deeply divided between those in the west who favor closer ties with Europe and many Russian-speakers in the east who look toward Moscow.

Ukraine has accused Russia of backing the insurgents who have seized government buildings in 10 eastern cities and fears that Moscow is seeking a pretext to invade; Russia has already stationed tens of thousands of troops in areas near the Ukrainian border.

Russian troops backed separatists in Ukraine's Black Sea peninsula of Crimea in March, then annexed the region after a referendum called for secession.

A deal in Geneva last month aimed to get those who had seized government buildings in Ukraine to leave and calm down the tensions that have prompted the United States and the European Union to slap Russia with sanctions for its actions in Ukraine.

Ukraine's acting president Oleksandr Turchynov admitted earlier this week that the central government had lost control of the east, and said some government troops and police there were "either helping or cooperating with terrorist organizations." He said efforts should be focused on preventing the instability from spreading to other parts of the country.
Russia's foreign ministry on Friday accused Ukraine's fledging government of using "terrorists" from ultranationalist organizations for the military operation. It also claimed that Kiev deployed tanks and helicopters that were "conducting missile strikes on protesters," something that neither side in Ukraine reported. An Associated Press crew also saw no evidence of missile strikes in Slovyansk.

The foreign ministry also cited insurgents in Ukraine as saying that some of the government attackers spoke English.
Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the Kremlin had sent envoy Vladimir Lukin to Ukraine's southeast to negotiate the release of seven foreign military observers who were being held hostage by pro-Russia militia in Slovyansk.
Ukrainian troops met fierce resistance Friday but managed to take control of nine checkpoints on the roads around Slovyansk, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said in a statement. He called on the insurgents to lay down the arms and release the hostages they have taken.

By afternoon, Ukrainian Security Service said half of Slovyansk was already under control of the Ukrainian army — a claim that could not be immediately verified.

"We are ready to negotiate with protesters and their representatives," Avakov said. "But for terrorists and armed separatists there is only punishment."

The city center appeared quiet but empty and tense Friday morning. On the road leading into Slovyansk from the south, an Associated Press reporter saw six parked Ukrainian armored vehicles Friday morning and an AP cameraman saw black plumes of smoke on the edge of the city, where an emergency siren had sounded at dawn.
The spokesman for the military wing of the pro-Russia forces, who would give only his first name, Vladislav, said fighting had broken out at several points around the city. He claimed that Ukrainian troops had made incursions into the city itself.
That claim could not be independently confirmed.

Hours after Putin said Thursday that Ukraine pull back its military from eastern and southern regions, Turchynov ordered that the military draft be renewed, citing "threats of encroachment on the nation's territorial integrity" and interference by Russia in its internal affairs.

Kiev's interim government came to power after President Viktor Yanukovych fled to Russia in February, drummed out by months of anti-government protests. Ukraine plans to hold a new presidential election on May 25
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solarz

solarz

Brigadier
The most hilarious thing about all this is the Western conceit that they can "isolate" Russia. Russia is an energy exporter sitting right beside China. Slapping sanctions on Russia just makes the West look silly.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
solarz said:
The most hilarious thing about all this is the Western conceit that they can "isolate" Russia. Russia is an energy exporter sitting right beside China. Slapping sanctions on Russia just makes the West look silly.
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1st, there is nothing hilarious about this at all. People re dieing. A potential for a really major conflict in Europe exists. So, at least to me, when you put it in that context, there is nothing funny about it in the least.

2nd, Russia is vulnerable economically.

3rd, in order to remotely take advantage of that vulnerability, the west will have to do a LOT more than the minor sanctions it has done, and that would involve a serious attempt to bring down the Russian currency.

4th, if the west had the stomach for that game (and I do not believe a single one of the nations does at this point) they would have to convince their people to also suffer economically to make it happen...and they are already in tough economic times. I do not believe there is a single inspriational leader of that stature in the west right now, so it is not likely to happen.

5th, if the west were to build up enough military power peripheral to this situation AND IF Putin believed they were willing to use it, it may well deter Putin. Putin does not want war. He is not willing to roisk a major war, much less a nuclear one, to get more in the Ukraine. He already has the principle jewel he sought. At the same time, he is wiley and will take advantage of a virtual "gift" if it lays before him.

Still, those are huge "AND IFs," for the west to suddenly stand up and make effective.

However, the US and NATO have made a failry modest buildup of aircraft in Poland and the Baltics. Right now, aircraft from the US (F-15Cs and F-16s), the UK (Typhoons), Canada (F-18s), France (Rafaels), and Poland (F-16s and Mig-29s) are all gathered in and patroling around the eastern edge of Poland and over the Baltics. In addition, the US has moved troops into Poland and the Baltics, as has the Czech Republic, and Poland is calling up fairly large exercises.

So, if Putin really felt there was a real chance that all of those NATO aircraft would be used to thwart an invasion by his forces...he might stand back from such an invasion.

But, as I say, that is a big "if." Unless some very direct back channels messages are being sent, I just do not seek Obama/Kerry, Merkel, the UK and France standing up that resolutely...and that's what it would take.

Just the same, a lot of very capable aircraft are being gathered in Poland.

Anyhow, just my own opinion. Nothing more.
 
nicky

nicky

Junior Member
Today's reports from Ukraine seems to be particularly special:eek:
Kind'a mixture of "Black Hawk Down" and God knows what.
Take a closer look at the picture: it's northern outskirts of Slavyansk.
Russian DoD published space image of Ukrainian troops concentration around thew city back on April 24th:
mark 21 armored personnel carriers near "feed mill".
Today Ukrainian authorities report courageous advance and capture of the "feed mill" (just fifteen hundred feet down south).
Three helos downed by rebels armed with RPGs - is this Somalia or what?

feed mill.jpg
 
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D

delft

Brigadier
The main trouble for the Kiev regime and its sponsors is that the regime has very little credibility in the Ukraine, so little that the subject isn't even mentioned in Dutch media and no doubt the media of many other Western countries.
 
Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
Guys I don't why, but to me what's been going on in Odessa today, I mean clashes like shown here:
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that's worse than today's events in Slavyansk ... the weapons are not as dangerous as RPGs or whatever was used in Slavyansk, but young people, who likely grew up in the same neighborhood, attended the same school for example etc., now beating each other because of ... I don't know what exactly, that's disgusting!
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Odessa is more western, As the Pro Russian movement moves more westward it's going to encounter resistance. in the more eastern sections The Pro Russian movement enjoyed overwhelming popularity, this allowed the Green men to use a soft tactic. Surround themselves with local civilians and use them as cover, the Ukrainian military could not respond for fear of collateral. this popularity also allowed Pro Russians to intimidate any local resistance for fear of being cracked down on.
as this tries to move west that popularity is dwindling and where it is going to hit a wall is likely to be the locations on the boarder grounds. places where the Pro European and Pro Russian statistics hit 40/60, 50/50 and the like is where it's going to get bloody. this is now Civil war. Brother against Brother, Father against Son. the Kiev goverment is weak and not up for that. So this could get very very ugly.
 
Kurt

Kurt

Junior Member
Look that the problem from a different perspective, armoured tanks are a tool for protected movement, countering them in defence demands much less armour. The imbalance of the game is, Russian insurgent forces need covert movement and public defensive position, while Ukrainian forces have a hard time doing much covert actions at all.
The intelligence component should not be underestimated. The Russians early on decided to show off, implying that they have unbeatable strength in this game. For this reason, I expect defence to be well matched to counter offence and create the right story for TV audiences. The Ukrainian side must be aware that they stand no chance at foxing anything. They have just one option, to rush things with as massive concentrations of firepower and armour as possible (a Zerg-like combat style). This rush will break the enemy or burn through their reserves and leave them defenceless.
CIA can try to help with establishing a stop gap solution to the intelligence infiltration of Ukraine. More important, all the money by Western powers can more or less directly help to finance production of cheap and plenty of armour with machine cannons for urban combat. If destruction and growth of Russian insurgent forces outperforms Ukrainian production capabilities in this contest, Ukraine loses. For this reason I do have doubts that they can win, but it's the best and only chance. The sanctions are as counterproductive to a peaceful solution as possible until Russia has obtained all obtainable goals, because via these sanctions a message is emitted, that there is no intention of accepting any of the Russian gains.

The question is, whether the Russian insurgency will be limited to the east and the coast or whether the hard to believe happens and it includes all but the westernmost fringe of Ukraine.
Crimea was step one. It's finished and was safely played.
Step two is taking the Russian speaking lands, Eastern and Southern Ukraine. Russia has expressed a clear intention of carrying through with this and I have doubts of the possibility to counter that intention because rushing in massive amounts of armour in urban combat does not work against trained and prepared enemies.
Step three would be taking the non-Russian speaking parts of the country as well. That's difficult and needs some preparation by convincing locals to give information and safe passageways to the new type of Russian infiltration troops. I doubt it impossible. Losing the battle in the east against insurgents, while not receiving much EU funds due to the usual distribution problems in a corrupt oligarchy could enable this total take over.
That's why I wait for news of massive amounts of destroyed Ukrainian armour all over the cities of Eastern and Southern Ukraine and whether there's a spread to the non-Russian speaking parts in a few months down the road.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Jeff Head said:
1st, there is nothing hilarious about this at all. People re dieing. A potential for a really major conflict in Europe exists. So, at least to me, when you put it in that context, there is nothing funny about it in the least.

2nd, Russia is vulnerable economically.

3rd, in order to remotely take advantage of that vulnerability, the west will have to do a LOT more than the minor sanctions it has done, and that would involve a serious attempt to bring down the Russian currency.

4th, if the west had the stomach for that game (and I do not believe a single one of the nations does at this point) they would have to convince their people to also suffer economically to make it happen...and they are already in tough economic times. I do not believe there is a single inspriational leader of that stature in the west right now, so it is not likely to happen.

5th, if the west were to build up enough military power peripheral to this situation AND IF Putin believed they were willing to use it, it may well deter Putin. Putin does not want war. He is not willing to roisk a major war, much less a nuclear one, to get more in the Ukraine. He already has the principle jewel he sought. At the same time, he is wiley and will take advantage of a virtual "gift" if it lays before him.

Still, those are huge "AND IFs," for the west to suddenly stand up and make effective.

However, the US and NATO have made a failry modest buildup of aircraft in Poland and the Baltics. Right now, aircraft from the US (F-15Cs and F-16s), the UK (Typhoons), Canada (F-18s), France (Rafaels), and Poland (F-16s and Mig-29s) are all gathered in and patroling around the eastern edge of Poland and over the Baltics. In addition, the US has moved troops into Poland and the Baltics, as has the Czech Republic, and Poland is calling up fairly large exercises.

So, if Putin really felt there was a real chance that all of those NATO aircraft would be used to thwart an invasion by his forces...he might stand back from such an invasion.

But, as I say, that is a big "if." Unless some very direct back channels messages are being sent, I just do not seek Obama/Kerry, Merkel, the UK and France standing up that resolutely...and that's what it would take.

Just the same, a lot of very capable aircraft are being gathered in Poland.

Anyhow, just my own opinion. Nothing more.
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First, where did I express the opinion that I found people dying funny? Please do not twist my words, I specifically said that the idea that the West can economically isolate Russia to be laughable.

Second, while every nation on Earth has the potential to be economically vulnerable, Russia has the unique advantage of having a huge, largely untapped, market for its exports right on its doorsteps. That alone means any attempt by the West to sanction Russia is futile. At most, it will cause a shift in the way Russia invests its money, but it will not, by any means, create pressure on Putin's administration. On the contrary, it will hasten an economic cooperation that the West has been trying to discourage in the past 20 years.

Finally, as I pointed out, there will be no war between Russia and NATO, because NATO does not stand a chance fighting Russia on its doorsteps. NATO commanders know this, which is why there has been no sign of serious mobilization. Bush stationed 300,000 troops on the borders of Iraq prior to its invasion. What is building up in Poland right now are just token gestures.

That said, you are right in that Putin does not want a fight with NATO either, at least, not if he can avoid it. If NATO were to send ground troops into western Ukraine, then Putin will almost certainly not attempt any advance into western Ukraine. However, should NATO troops enter Ukraine, it would be an immediate green light for Russian troops to pour into eastern Ukraine, which is something the Kiev regime does not want at this point. It is apparent that they still believe they can hold on to eastern Ukraine, or more likely, put up enough of an effort to keep themselves from hurled out of office when the inevitable partitioning occurs.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Neither Russia nor NAto as they stand would Fair well in a conflict. It's to Equal which is why neither actually wants to fight. the battles would instead be a proxy war with both sides backing sides.
 
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