The Civil War in Libya

montyp165 said:

If you're thinking that it's only a PRC issue, guess again:

From the same article:


TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Libya's new leadership has evidence Muammar Gaddafi bought arms from companies in China and Western countries in defiance of U.N. sanctions and now plans legal and diplomatic action, a military spokesman said in Tripoli on Monday.
Reuters

"We'll be going through legal channels, through international courts, as well as the United Nations itself," Abdul Rahman Busin told Reuters. "Either to prosecute them or to come to a diplomatic understanding."

He did not specify further what action might be taken against firms, individuals or states involved in any smuggling.

"We have gathered evidence from many sources, including the main documents that were gathered here in Tripoli, that point the finger at several countries that had been supplying Gaddafi with weapons and arms, as well as intelligence officers," he said.

"They had their own mercenaries who were helping them, but whether the mercenaries were directly linked to governments or (were) private individuals is still unclear," Busin added.

Earlier on Monday, China responded to the publication by a newspaper of documents that appeared to show Chinese state firms offered Gaddafi weaponry by confirming some staff had met Libyan envoys in July but without the government's knowledge.

"We've been gathering information for months now," Busin said. He declined to name the nationalities of those suspected of trying to supply Gaddafi but confirmed some were Chinese and that the proposed route for imports passed through Algeria.

Asked if Westerners also offered arms, he said they did.

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So what are the names of these "western" nations?

I can guess Russia, and other 'eastern european' nations, maybe some South American nations, but they are the other usual suspects, but nothing "surprising".

ToxSic said:

So what are the names of these "western" nations?

I can guess Russia, and other 'eastern european' nations, maybe some South American nations, but they are the other usual suspects, but nothing "surprising".

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Actually I'm pretty sure that I read about how there was a letter from Senator McCain to the Qadaffi government in which he was discussing the Congressional process for Libya to acquire American arms. I forget if it was a recently released Wikileaks cable, or if it was a document recovered from a captured Libyan government facility. Wouldn't be surprised if the French were in there as well. Italy sold those 155 mm Palmira SPGs as well just a few years ago I think.

No one cares for the black man. I have no love for Amnesty International, but I am no hypocrite unlike Nato and Qatari leadership. NATOs merceneries are very racist. Nato needs to rain in its men.





Claims of rape of African women. Generally anyone with a mixed black and Arab ancestory is seen with suspicion. The darker you are the worse you have it in Libya.

Baibar of Jalat said:

No one cares for the black man. I have no love for Amnesty International, but I am no hypocrite unlike Nato and Qatari leadership. NATOs merceneries are very racist. Nato needs to rain in its men.

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Claims of rape of African women. Generally anyone with a mixed black and Arab ancestory is seen with suspicion. The darker you are the worse you have it in Libya.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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Pisses me off when I read this article. Thanks for sharing Baibar.

Finn McCool said:

Actually I'm pretty sure that I read about how there was a letter from Senator McCain to the Qadaffi government in which he was discussing the Congressional process for Libya to acquire American arms. I forget if it was a recently released Wikileaks cable, or if it was a document recovered from a captured Libyan government facility. Wouldn't be surprised if the French were in there as well. Italy sold those 155 mm Palmira SPGs as well just a few years ago I think.

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In Italy's and certain French and British contributions (jets to tear gas) were at times before the riots and finally revolts perhaps? I am getting the impression from the articles that these sales were being discussed during the revolts.

Are the I sort of doubt McCain's "offer" would have passed congressional approval. Was this and the French reference you made occurring after the Libyans actually revolted in arms?

On the other hand, I am a bit confused. From one of the news footages regarding this topic of Chinese State weapon firms dealing with Qadaffy, they showed what I believe was a rebel opening a box of arms that came from China. I know that China previously sold certain arms to Libya so I am curious was this spin/reference or the rebel's evidence that China may have actually sold those after or during the revolution and after arms embargo took place - as the issue seems to revolve around the possible violation of an embargo.

If no actual transaction took place - as China claims - then there would not be a problem. Sort of like humoring Qadaffy while he is still alive.

It seems that despite all the progress we have made, at the end of the day, when the chips are down, the black man still always gets screwed over by everyone and hardly anyone cares.

I dare say the western media would be giving the plight of these poor people a hell of a lot more attention if it was blacks killing and raping whites. Look at all the rage against Zimbabwe when the blacks drove the whites out of their farms there.

ToxSic said:

In Italy's and certain French and British contributions (jets to tear gas) were at times before the riots and finally revolts perhaps? I am getting the impression from the articles that these sales were being discussed during the revolts.

Are the I sort of doubt McCain's "offer" would have passed congressional approval. Was this and the French reference you made occurring after the Libyans actually revolted in arms?

On the other hand, I am a bit confused. From one of the news footages regarding this topic of Chinese State weapon firms dealing with Qadaffy, they showed what I believe was a rebel opening a box of arms that came from China. I know that China previously sold certain arms to Libya so I am curious was this spin/reference or the rebel's evidence that China may have actually sold those after or during the revolution and after arms embargo took place - as the issue seems to revolve around the possible violation of an embargo.

If no actual transaction took place - as China claims - then there would not be a problem. Sort of like humoring Qadaffy while he is still alive.

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Well I also doubt that any Chinese arms manufactures could have gotten away with exporting millions of dollars of arms without approval from the proper authorities.

This raises some troubling questions in terms of China's arm export industry.

If the firms knew they would need approval, then it would have been pointless for them to even hold the meetings with Qaddaffi reps if they didn't think Beijing would approve the exports.

My guess is that the firms believed they could have used one or more of the neighbouring countries as cover, so they would pay off some officials there to generate orders for weapons which are intended for Qaddaffi. This should allow them to get the export clearance and once the weapons are in those neighbouring countries, they could be transfered to Qaddaffi forces via a third party. But Chinese arms controls should not be that easy to circumvent, and needs to be improved.

I really doubt the Chinese government would authorize such a move as it goes against Chinese interests to prolong the conflict (disrupting oil supplies) and also because Qaddaffi has had an anti-Chinese streak that Beijing would not miss once he is gone.

There is the playing both sides suggestion, but in mid-July when these deals were going on, it was obvious to everyone that Qaddaffi was loosing the war badly. That is the time to jump ship, not hop on his bandwagon. It was 'A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse' kinda time for Qaddaffi, and no promise he would make could be taken seriously.

Of course, the outside possibility is that this was all a massive scam.

The Chinese companies knew that Qaddaffi's days are numbered and that he is desperate, so it could be that they agreed to sell him arms only to scam him out of however much the firms can get him to pay upfront. They can then keep that money and deliver nothing with zero chance of being sued or otherwise penalized. Morally bankrupt, but it would be the easist money they will ever make.

plawolf said:

Well I also doubt that any Chinese arms manufactures could have gotten away with exporting millions of dollars of arms without approval from the proper authorities.

This raises some troubling questions in terms of China's arm export industry.

If the firms knew they would need approval, then it would have been pointless for them to even hold the meetings with Qaddaffi reps if they didn't think Beijing would approve the exports.

My guess is that the firms believed they could have used one or more of the neighbouring countries as cover, so they would pay off some officials there to generate orders for weapons which are intended for Qaddaffi. This should allow them to get the export clearance and once the weapons are in those neighbouring countries, they could be transfered to Qaddaffi forces via a third party. But Chinese arms controls should not be that easy to circumvent, and needs to be improved.

I really doubt the Chinese government would authorize such a move as it goes against Chinese interests to prolong the conflict (disrupting oil supplies) and also because Qaddaffi has had an anti-Chinese streak that Beijing would not miss once he is gone.

There is the playing both sides suggestion, but in mid-July when these deals were going on, it was obvious to everyone that Qaddaffi was loosing the war badly. That is the time to jump ship, not hop on his bandwagon. It was 'A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse' kinda time for Qaddaffi, and no promise he would make could be taken seriously.

Of course, the outside possibility is that this was all a massive scam.

The Chinese companies knew that Qaddaffi's days are numbered and that he is desperate, so it could be that they agreed to sell him arms only to scam him out of however much the firms can get him to pay upfront. They can then keep that money and deliver nothing with zero chance of being sued or otherwise penalized. Morally bankrupt, but it would be the easist money they will ever make.

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Well we can only hope it's the last one, which will be funny...getting scammed while your house is already on fire.

plawolf said:

Well I also doubt that any Chinese arms manufactures could have gotten away with exporting millions of dollars of arms without approval from the proper authorities.

This raises some troubling questions in terms of China's arm export industry.

If the firms knew they would need approval, then it would have been pointless for them to even hold the meetings with Qaddaffi reps if they didn't think Beijing would approve the exports.

My guess is that the firms believed they could have used one or more of the neighbouring countries as cover, so they would pay off some officials there to generate orders for weapons which are intended for Qaddaffi. This should allow them to get the export clearance and once the weapons are in those neighbouring countries, they could be transfered to Qaddaffi forces via a third party. But Chinese arms controls should not be that easy to circumvent, and needs to be improved.

I really doubt the Chinese government would authorize such a move as it goes against Chinese interests to prolong the conflict (disrupting oil supplies) and also because Qaddaffi has had an anti-Chinese streak that Beijing would not miss once he is gone.

There is the playing both sides suggestion, but in mid-July when these deals were going on, it was obvious to everyone that Qaddaffi was loosing the war badly. That is the time to jump ship, not hop on his bandwagon. It was 'A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse' kinda time for Qaddaffi, and no promise he would make could be taken seriously.

Of course, the outside possibility is that this was all a massive scam.

The Chinese companies knew that Qaddaffi's days are numbered and that he is desperate, so it could be that they agreed to sell him arms only to scam him out of however much the firms can get him to pay upfront. They can then keep that money and deliver nothing with zero chance of being sued or otherwise penalized. Morally bankrupt, but it would be the easist money they will ever make.

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I would agree; it would seem that in China, the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. If these government owned arms factories were trying to deliberately circumvent Chinese export restrictions and break international law, then it gets very worrisome as to the level of control the Chinese central government have over their arms industry.

Your guess that they were trying to use a third party from my understanding is correct; Algeria is named as being the third party involved, as well as some unscrupulous people in South Africa. The Chinese definitely won't come out smelling like roses, even if it was a deliberate ploy to bilk the Gaddafi regime out of millions of dollars, as the NTC will probably demand that money back, and will most likely wage some sort of economic war such as seizure of Chinese assets in Libya or cutting off oil exports to China in retaliation.

In the end, the Chinese have to be way more careful about whom they sell weapons to, as those weapons could end up in the hands of people who may have an agenda against the Chinese, such as rebel or separatist groups, or maybe even criminal organizations.

Pointblank writes:
"In the end, the Chinese have to be way more careful about whom they sell weapons to, as those weapons could end up in the hands of people who may have an agenda against the Chinese, such as rebel or separatist groups, or maybe even criminal organizations."
That goes for every weapons exporter. I don't think I know of any that was always successful in this respect.