PLA ICBM Force in 2016

kroko

Senior Member
Martian,

I really dont understand why you keep insisting that china can rely on russa´s nuclear strategic arsenal just because russia opposes the USA. Russia wont necessarly defend china. There is no NATO-like union betwen the 2 countries. Get real

Also you say that china will have 500 warheads capable of hitting the USA, by 2020 . Yeah, sure. They wont get anywhere close to that, going by their production rate.

Finally, i think that you need to tone down anti-USA rethoric. Only show your bias.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Martian,

I really dont understand why you keep insisting that china can rely on russa´s nuclear strategic arsenal just because russia opposes the USA. Russia wont necessarly defend china. There is no NATO-like union betwen the 2 countries. Get real

The feeling I get from his posts is not that there is a formal nuclear treaty between Russia or china or whatever, and certainly nto for defece. What he means by rely is that he believes in the case of a nuclear war between the US and China, such a conflict will almost certainly involve Russia launching nukes at the US for their own reasons (to not stay under US power).

I personally am not sure about the reasoning for why Russia would want to nuke the US if the combat is initially between China and the US, but it could be possible that the Russians believe the nukes are aimed towards them, unless the US does something to assure them 120% that it's not. But even then.

Also you say that china will have 500 warheads capable of hitting the USA, by 2020 . Yeah, sure. They wont get anywhere close to that, going by their production rate.

Hmm I'm not sure if they can go to 500, but they can get pretty close to that number. We don't know how many DF-31As there are nor how many they're producing a year, we don't know how many 094s there are and their production rate, nor do we know the JL-2 production rate and the plans for the 094 successor, the much vaunted 096.
Factor in 3-4 MIRV capability for JL-2, each 094 can carry twelve... you'll need 10+ SSBN, but we can decrease that number a little when we add in land based ICBMs. I'm not saying they will get ~500 nuclear warheads by 2020 but it's not an impossible projection.

Finally, i think that you need to tone down anti-USA rethoric. Only show your bias.

Oh I don't think he's being anti US. We're talking about China's ICBM force vs the most likely enemy and how it should improve its capability against said enemy. Said enemy at the moment is the US of A so it's not anti US at all when it's perfectly under the subject umbrella.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I think Russia is morewary of China than USA and would do its best to stay out ofany conflict and let the afore mentioned knock each other around. Thatway Russia might become "King of the Castle".
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
I think Russia is morewary of China than USA and would do its best to stay out ofany conflict and let the afore mentioned knock each other around. Thatway Russia might become "King of the Castle".

Exactly!

Everyone (every player) is thinking the same, but NO PLAYER IS SMARTER (Or more precisely, more stuipid than) THAN ANY REST OF THE PLAYERS.

That's why every player will want to (despite the capability) knock out all the rest of the players, once the game started. No one would want others to became the "king of the hill".

Anyone thought if a nuclear exchange took place between USA and Russia only - that UK, China and France can "walk away unharmed"? That uncle sam WILL NOT "do something" to make sure the rest of the players ALSO HARMED? Yes, I am talking about uncle sam shoot his own allies, if Ivan didn't.

The same thing goes to: UK and France make sure no european country stand at the top of the hill; China make sure no asian country can stand at the top of the hill...

Such simple logic, so many people just REFUSE TO BELIEVE it. Because so many people considering A NATION, is as simple as a person, that A NATION can be a "kind hearted man" as kind as your neighbor next house.

People, we are talking about PLAYERS here, not single human individuals.
 
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Exactly!

Everyone (every player) is thinking the same, but NO PLAYER IS SMARTER (Or more precisely, more stuipid than) THAN ANY REST OF THE PLAYERS.

That's why every player will want to (despite the capability) knock out all the rest of the players, once the game started. No one would want others to became the "king of the hill".

Anyone thought if a nuclear exchange took place between USA and Russia only - that UK, China and France can "walk away unharmed"? That uncle sam WILL NOT "do something" to make sure the rest of the players ALSO HARMED? Yes, I am talking about uncle sam shoot his own allies, if Ivan didn't.

The same thing goes to: UK and France make sure no european country stand at the top of the hill; China make sure no asian country can stand at the top of the hill...

Such simple logic, so many people just REFUSE TO BELIEVE it. Because so many people considering A NATION, is as simple as a person, that A NATION can be a "kind hearted man" as kind as your neighbor next house.

People, we are talking about PLAYERS here, not single human individuals.

realism, my friend
 

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Re: China's Nuclear Strike Force

I am flabbergasted when you write stuff like that (e.g. look at bolded sentence above). The Sino-Soviet split was in 1961. China developed her first atomic weapon in 1964 and hydrogen bomb in 1967. China's first DF-5 ICBM was successfully launched in 1971.

China has always needed her own nuclear triad. That was the whole point of the thermonuclear weapon and ICBM programs. The Sino-Soviet split preceded China's thermonuclear and ICBM developments by many years and it is irrelevant to China's need for a nuclear triad.

But as you do so know, they are in limited numbers. Researching, producing, testing, and purchasing in limit quantities of nuclear weapons does not establish that a country needs a nuclear triad, perhaps they just wanted to see for themselves if they were capable of such feats (like South Africa).

I also recall hearing what FriedRice stated--that it uses a nuclear explosion high in the atmosphere to destroy incoming warheads. Whether or not that is true, i am almost certain that the Russians do not have an ABM system using kinetic kill vehicles.

Semi-false. The Moscow ABM system has been in operation for several decades, it does rely on a small nuclear warhead to destroy incoming warheads (even the newer ones). However, the S-400 is technically an SAM with limited ABM capabilities. The newest missile uses a kinetic kill warhead which weighs roughly ~20 or so kg. Older versions (including S-300 missiles) used small HE and HE-FRAG warheads (by small I mean about 100-150 kg), but yeah, the newest S-400 missile has a 400 km range with about 50 km service altitude, Active Radar Homing warhead, 24 kg KE warhead (not exactly a vehicle), and pretty boom stuff. Limited BM engagement speeds though, 4.8 kms is the fastest thing it can hit (almost Mach 14).
 
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montyp165

Junior Member
Re: China's Nuclear Strike Force

But as you do so know, they are in limited numbers. Researching, producing, testing, and purchasing in limit quantities of nuclear weapons does not establish that a country needs a nuclear triad, perhaps they just wanted to see for themselves if they were capable of such feats (like South Africa).

Just because it isn't deployed in massive numbers doesn't mean the need or use of a triad system doesn't exist, there was a huge discussion about this very thing on some other place and the thing that was interestingly pointed out was that the capability of deterrence was sufficient enough for the PRC to achieve its desired goals without having the build up a whole mass of systems, particularly during the period of limited resources.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Do you guys here have any info or article or rumour of Chinese ICBM production rate per year ?

my estimate is 1 brigade of DF-31A/B per year (about 8 to 12 missiles) and 12 JL-2A per year

I believe now China already have 8 - 10 Brigades of DF-31A/B
 

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
Re: China's Nuclear Strike Force

I understand that part, but what possible proof is there that the U.S. would want to rule the Russians? Afterall, even in a limited nuclear strike on China to wipe out their people, Russia still has more nukes than anybody else, combined. Therefore, even though their economy is wrecked, they still have a big card to play, an ace of spades per se.

Really, the theory of "superpowers" and "global dominance" or even "competition among nations" is obviously wrong. If I got nuked, all I want to do is nuke the guy that nuked me. If I am not to be the super power anymore, does that really matter anyways? At least I still have this and that and my enemy got what was coming.

The fallacious thought that, "China f&#ked us, U.S. f#^ked China, lets f&!k the U.S.!" is incredibly naive, and in reality, if China nukes Russia, Russia nukes China. Just because you're not as strong as you used to be doesn't mean the other guy is stronger.



I think you are quite naive in your assumption and calculation.


When there is a nuclear exchange, its not as simple as "I fire x number of missiles, so I deduct the number I fired and I still have the rest to play with". That's your first erroneous assumption. In a nuclear exchange between Russia and China, both side practically has to throw everything they have at each other, because :

1. China has, and is developing/advancing its ABM systems. With ABM, it is a great equalizer - it means even when Russian have more nuclear warheads/launchers/missiles, it will have to use "mass swarming" to overcome the ABM system to ensure destruction of the other side. Firing one or two at a target the old way is not going to work, because it makes it easy to intercept as ABM advances. Both side will have to throw as many nukes at the target as possible in hope of overcoming the ABM.

2. In a nuclear exchange, its not just firing the missile and "we are all fine and dandy", the incoming missiles will also destroy your silos/missiles/places where you can launch, so, that reduce the number even further.

So it is very costly for Russian to attack China with nukes, it will leave Russia hugely weaken if not make Russian spent almost its entire nuclear arsenals just to ensure it can win the war.

Now, a bit of historical perspective - Just after the cold war ended, the Russians expected huge help from American, but instead, they were given the cold shoulder intentionally, as American sees no reason to help Russian in anyway except in arms reduction treaties to "de-fang" the Russians further while watching Russian's arm industries collapse. It is clear that American wants its strongest rival to weaken and collapse so its easy picking for later. The Russians calls the 90s the "lost decade" and it gave them a new perspective on the world - that American were never meant anything good for Russian. That's the reason why Putin become so wildly popular in Russia even today, even of an idol status.

That brings us to my third point :

3. In the future IF (BIG IF) this conflict is to occur, its is likely the world is running almost out of resources (and we already are). With Russian hugely weaken (if not devoid almost of no nuclear weapon as it spent it all to overcome ABM) it set itself up as a prime lamb to be slaughter. Russia is rich with resources, and America is already fast running out of resources and still hungry for more everyday (average american energy usage is still increasing steadily). Russian are not stupid. It will be stupid to think America will pass the the chance to get rid of its old prime rival who ALSO HAPPEN TO HAVE THE MOST NATURAL RESOURCES ON EARTH, with low population count (and hence military/army to fight with - especially after nuclear war). Like I said, its fat lamb ready to be strip and slaughter. America will not pass up this chance.

Also, to Martian, the reason why Russia/China/USA don't want war with each other, is because its most likely to benefit the side that sits it out. The winner of the duel will be FAR TOO WEAK TO FEND OFF AN ATTACK FROM BYSTANDER. History has shown that when super powers goes into war and weakens each other, it only benefits the bystanders.
 
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