071 LPD thread

ILikeChina said:

There won't be any decommissioning before the end of designed lifetime of particular vessel. The

Iron Man said:

This is not the correct conclusion to draw from the buildup of 071s. LSTs will continue to be useful to the PLAN, especially in massive invasion scenarios where as many men and vehicles need to offload on an enemy beach as soon as possible. "True" amphibs will only contribute a miniscule fraction of the total landing forces in these scenarios.

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more amphibious warships the better in the Taiwan case.

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This will depend on how many Type 071s and Zubr crafts China is going to build. And I did be very surprise if the final number for both types did not reach at least double digits. This applies to the Zubr even more (I expect at least 15-20).
The problem with the LST is that it lacks the endurance and range of the Type 071 or the Type 075. Nor is it well suited to carry troops over long range due to lack of affable accommodations. And when compared to the Zubr, it lacks the flexibility and the speed. The exception would be the latest Type 072A which can accommodate LCACs.
Beyond the possible scenario of war or contingency with a specific island or North Korea, there is very little prospect that China would need to mount a serious amphibious assault anywhere abroad , not to mention that such operations will be infinitely more complex and costly the father abroad they are. And it would not be a good use of resource for China to continue procuring or maintaining a specific type of ship when it can reasonably be expected to build two other types that excels in each of their own respective areas over the preceding one. It would also take time for China to mass up the Type 071s (at least another 2 decades or so depending on the build rate for ships of this size) so by the time they are done, most of the LSTs already have a good mileage on them.

Here is Henri K comment on the latest launch of type 71 Surprisingly the chief designer is a woman and He said 2 more will be built before it switched to type 75 pending the green light from the authority. But recent development of impending type 75 launch could cancelled those 2


Amphibious: Hudong launches 6th LPD Type 071



7 months after the previous copy, the Shanghai-based shipyard Hudong-Zhonghua (沪东 中华 造船) again launched another Type 071 landing craft for the Chinese navy, more precisely the 6th and probably the last of the class.

The launch of this Landing Craft Transport (TCD) moving 25,000 tonnes at full load was announced by the Shanghai Maritime Safety Administration Bureau, which issued a notification to prohibit all shipping on the 20th. January between 15:20 and 16:50 Beijing time on a waterway of 1,500 meters × 350 meters around the dry dock.

It is also the first Chinese warship launched in 2018.


Notification from the Chinese Maritime Safety Administration, signaling the launch of the 6th Type 071 (Image: China MSA)


The 6th Type 071 was launched on January 20, 2018 in the afternoon (Photo: MSM)


The 5th (left) and the 6th Chinese LPD Type 071 (Photo: HSH)

This 6th Type 071, which has the H1743A factory registration, is 210 meters long and 28 meters wide. Designed initially after the Taiwan Strait crisis in 1996 to increase the amphibious capacity of the Chinese navy, this TCD class is capable of carrying on board a battalion of 800-man marines and a small score of amphibious armor.

In the event of an amphibious assault, each Type 071 may release from its submerged well deck at least two Type 726 / Type 726A , a , to land each 50 tonnes of material, such as a ZTZ-96A type battle tank for example.

The ship also has two large hangars and a flight deck, where two helicopters like the Z-8Jcan be operated simultaneously.
Chinese navies began the year 2018 with an amphibious exercise in the South China Sea (Photos: PLA Navy)




毛 献 群, chief engineer of the Type 071 program at the 708 Institute of the Chinese naval group CSSC (Photo: CSSC 708th)

The Chinese Navy admitted to active service its first Type 071 in November 2007, and it took another four years for the second model to come on stream, followed by the third in 2012. All three were assigned to the southern fleet, although they were originally designed for the landing scenario on the island of Taiwan so rather to the east.

And what it should be the end of the program with three copies was finally reviewed and, according to a source close to the record. The Chinese Navy has decided to place an additional order of five vessels, bringing the number of this class Type 071 to eight in total. The fourth Type 071 was launched in January 2015 before joining the Eastern fleet a year later in early 2016.

But the sources seem to indicate recently that the number of final ships could be revised downwards and the program would be interrupted after six hulls, waiting for new high-level instructions and also the arrival of the new Type 075 program , a helicopter carrier 35,000 tonnes.

The name of this 6th Type 071 is unknown for the moment, but it should, according to the rules of appointment of Chinese warships, be given the name of a mountain in China as for other class buildings.

According to our estimate, the Chinese navy could admit to service its 5th Type 071 by early June this year, and this new born yesterday should also integrate the Eastern fleet by January 2019.

To be continued.

Henri K.

I don’t think we will see any more Type 071 LPD

There is nothing ready to go in the dry dock

The switch is happening to LHD, 2 units one for SSF and one for ESF

After that we may see restart of LPD construction

Viktor Jav said:

This will depend on how many Type 071s and Zubr crafts China is going to build. And I did be very surprise if the final number for both types did not reach at least double digits. This applies to the Zubr even more (I expect at least 15-20).
The problem with the LST is that it lacks the endurance and range of the Type 071 or the Type 075. Nor is it well suited to carry troops over long range due to lack of affable accommodations. And when compared to the Zubr, it lacks the flexibility and the speed. The exception would be the latest Type 072A which can accommodate LCACs.
Beyond the possible scenario of war or contingency with a specific island or North Korea, there is very little prospect that China would need to mount a serious amphibious assault anywhere abroad , not to mention that such operations will be infinitely more complex and costly the father abroad they are. And it would not be a good use of resource for China to continue procuring or maintaining a specific type of ship when it can reasonably be expected to build two other types that excels in each of their own respective areas over the preceding one. It would also take time for China to mass up the Type 071s (at least another 2 decades or so depending on the build rate for ships of this size) so by the time they are done, most of the LSTs already have a good mileage on them.

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It won't matter if the PLAN orders 20 Type 071s and 40 Zubrs. I'm not sure you understand the true scale of an amphibious invasion or the carrying capacity of either type of ship. LSTs were used all over the Pacific and Atlantic theaters during WWII, so I'm not sure what you're talking about LSTs lacking range and endurance. If we are talking about Taiwan (and we are), then range makes zero difference in any case. Regardless, China will need far more than all the 071s, Zubrs, and LSTs combined to mount a major amphibious assault against a prepared modern defender. It will certainly have to also make extensive use of commercial shipping and airborne forces, and even commercial air if it can seize an airfield or 5.

Iron Man said:

It won't matter if the PLAN orders 20 Type 071s and 40 Zubrs. I'm not sure you understand the true scale of an amphibious invasion or the carrying capacity of either type of ship. LSTs were used all over the Pacific and Atlantic theaters during WWII, so I'm not sure what you're talking about LSTs lacking range and endurance. If we are talking about Taiwan (and we are), then range makes zero difference in any case. Regardless, China will need far more than all the 071s, Zubrs, and LSTs combined to mount a major amphibious assault against a prepared modern defender. It will certainly have to also make extensive use of commercial shipping and airborne forces, and even commercial air if it can seize an airfield or 5.

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The Type 071 can carry at least a full battalion of anywhere from 500-800 troops and 15-20 armored vehicles, the Zubr can carry up three main battle tanks (up to 150 tonnes), or ten armoured vehicles with 140 troops (up to 131 tonnes), or 8 armoured personnel carriers of total mass up to 115 tonnes, or 8 amphibious tanks or up to 500 troops (with 360 troops in the cargo compartment).
The number of the respective ships will matter because the PLAN is not some entity with a bottomless pocket that can buy every ship it wants, it will have to decide in the balance of numbers and capabilities. In so far the Zubr and the Type 071 has demonstrated that they can perform their respective tasks better then what the Type 072 can do.
Surely you must know that when the Allies used the LST in the Pacific, they were employed in an island hopping campaign fashion whereby the closest island is less then a few hundred kilometers apart. And that in the Atlantic they were based in Britain and employed in the relatively short English Channel and the closed area of the Mediterranean.Or that the technology of the time permits for nothing better to be built. If the subject of Taiwan is brought up then the Zubr will be infinitely better in that regard due to its speed, flexibility and a still respectable cargo capacity.
Apart from that, one is hard press to name another country of which China would need to mount a possible amphibious assault of any serious capacity that would require the existence of the Type 072 when the Type 071 is at hand. Assuming if China does not acquire anymore off shore bases then the one in Djbouti and Gwadar.

They just commissioned 3 x Type 072 III last year why would they decommission them ?

Some of the older units date back to 1990s even older ones are in reserve for PLA

It’s going nowhere

asif iqbal said:

I don’t think we will see any more Type 071 LPD

There is nothing ready to go in the dry dock

...

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hmmm - what about this?

looks like Hangar-Module

Sczepan said:

hmmm - what about this?
View attachment 44983
looks like Hangar-Module

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Yes that is what I circled in my post

What I meant was nothing ready for LPD

I believe that is for LHD

Viktor Jav said:

The Type 071 can carry at least a full battalion of anywhere from 500-800 troops and 15-20 armored vehicles, the Zubr can carry up three main battle tanks (up to 150 tonnes), or ten armoured vehicles with 140 troops (up to 131 tonnes), or 8 armoured personnel carriers of total mass up to 115 tonnes, or 8 amphibious tanks or up to 500 troops (with 360 troops in the cargo compartment).

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Let's say the 071 can carry 800 troops and 20 vehicles and the Zubr can carry 10 vehicles and 140 troops. Furthermore let's maximize fanboi fantasy and assume the PLAN will build 12 071s and 20 Zubrs. They won't of course, but let's just say they will. Let's even add 6 075s into the mix each carrying 1,000 troops and 30 vehicles, in addition to the air wing. For troops that's (6 x 1,000) + (12 x 800) + (20 x 140) = 18,400 troops. For vehicles that comes out to (12 x 20) + (6 x 30) + (20 x 10) = 620 vehicles. So a force of 6 075s, 12 071s, and 20 Zubrs can ferry 18,400 troops and 620 vehicles across the Strait. By comparison, Taiwan has 130,000 troops just in the Army along with ~3,800 tanks, IFVs, and mechanized artillery. BTW, as an FYI you can drive at 40km/h from the northern tip of the island to the southern tip in less than half a day along either the eastern or western side with plenty of crossing highways in between, meaning that even widely-spread defensive forces on Taiwan will be able to rapidly concentrate at the site(s) of invasion once the invasion beach(s) is/are determined.

Viktor Jav said:

The number of the respective ships will matter because the PLAN is not some entity with a bottomless pocket that can buy every ship it wants, it will have to decide in the balance of numbers and capabilities. In so far the Zubr and the Type 071 has demonstrated that they can perform their respective tasks better then what the Type 072 can do.

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Just because the PLAN isn't some entity with a bottomless pocket DOESN'T mean anyone has to agree with you that the PLAN will sack the 072 in favor of the 071, especially when they have been building both concurrently. Just on the face of it your premise is already and unambiguously dismissible.

Viktor Jav said:

Surely you must know that when the Allies used the LST in the Pacific, they were employed in an island hopping campaign fashion whereby the closest island is less then a few hundred kilometers apart. And that in the Atlantic they were based in Britain and employed in the relatively short English Channel and the closed area of the Mediterranean.Or that the technology of the time permits for nothing better to be built. If the subject of Taiwan is brought up then the Zubr will be infinitely better in that regard due to its speed, flexibility and a still respectable cargo capacity.

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Surely you know that the Taiwan Strait is less than "a few hundred kilometers" apart, even at its widest extent.

Viktor Jav said:

Apart from that, one is hard press to name another country of which China would need to mount a possible amphibious assault of any serious capacity that would require the existence of the Type 072 when the Type 071 is at hand. Assuming if China does not acquire anymore off shore bases then the one in Djbouti and Gwadar.

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Correct, LSTs are essentially for Taiwan, barring any other extreme and extremely rare scenarios. OTOH, the core mission of the PLA has been the reunification of Taiwan with the mainland since its founding, and yet we would have you arguing that the PLAN will somehow ridiculously toss out the 072s when even a massive force of 6 hypothetical ARGs and almost two dozen Zubrs can still only ferry a pathetic ONE SEVENTH of the forces that they will expect to encounter during the invasion. Maybe you should have a look at the force ratios at Normandy and then come back and then keep going with this surreal tossing-of-the-072s theory.

asif iqbal said:

They just commissioned 3 x Type 072 III last year why would they decommission them ?

Some of the older units date back to 1990s even older ones are in reserve for PLA

It’s going nowhere

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Exactly.

Iron Man said:

Let's say the 071 can carry 800 troops and 20 vehicles and the Zubr can carry 10 vehicles and 140 troops. Furthermore let's maximize fanboi fantasy and assume the PLAN will build 12 071s and 20 Zubrs. They won't of course, but let's just say they will. Let's even add 6 075s into the mix each carrying 1,000 troops and 30 vehicles, in addition to the air wing. For troops that's (6 x 1,000) + (12 x 800) + (20 x 140) = 18,400 troops. For vehicles that comes out to (12 x 20) + (6 x 30) + (20 x 10) = 620 vehicles. So a force of 6 075s, 12 071s, and 20 Zubrs can ferry 18,400 troops and 620 vehicles across the Strait. By comparison, Taiwan has 130,000 troops just in the Army along with ~3,800 tanks, IFVs, and mechanized artillery. BTW, as an FYI you can drive at 40km/h from the northern tip of the island to the southern tip in less than half a day along either the eastern or western side with plenty of crossing highways in between, meaning that even widely-spread defensive forces on Taiwan will be able to rapidly concentrate at the site(s) of invasion once the invasion beach(s) is/are determined.


Just because the PLAN isn't some entity with a bottomless pocket DOESN'T mean anyone has to agree with you that the PLAN will sack the 072 in favor of the 071, especially when they have been building both concurrently. Just on the face of it your premise is already and unambiguously dismissible.


Surely you know that the Taiwan Strait is less than "a few hundred kilometers" apart, even at its widest extent.


Correct, LSTs are essentially for Taiwan, barring any other extreme and extremely rare scenarios. OTOH, the core mission of the PLA has been the reunification of Taiwan with the mainland since its founding, and yet we would have you arguing that the PLAN will somehow ridiculously toss out the 072s when even a massive force of 6 hypothetical ARGs and almost two dozen Zubrs can still only ferry a pathetic ONE SEVENTH of the forces that they will expect to encounter during the invasion. Maybe you should have a look at the force ratios at Normandy and then come back and then keep going with this surreal tossing-of-the-072s theory.


Exactly.

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1) Let's be honest here, even with the current inventory of every single amphibious assault ship in the PLAN's arsenal. There is no hope that the PLAN can mass a landing force that can match the numbers that Taiwan can put out in a single operation. Nor there is any indication that China is building anymore Type 072 LSTs as well to meet that issue. The last one was commission in 2016 and if there is any more build there should have been indication. So the only way forward for China would either be to build more (in which case the Zubr would be a more logical choice due to it being a smaller craft and thus more easier to build and still capable of carrying a significant amount of troops) or to change the tactic to one which by incremental buildup through multiple ops, they can build up a comparable force within a short amount of time, in which case again the Zubr will be a better choice because of its high speed which translates into high turnout rates, as well as a faster troop deployment process compared to the Type 072.
2) And I am not expecting everyone to agree with me, and least of all you. This is a free forum where we are all entitled to state our opinions. Nor is my argument completely dismissable at first glance as I have give ample explanation to back it up.
3) Which is why the Zubr is much more suited for that than the Type 072 for all the reasons I have stated earlier.
4) And again, 2 dozen Zubrs is a very modest prediction here, if China is ever truly serious about an amphibious assault on Taiwan. A total double that number would not be out of contemplation. The problem with the Type 072 is that the Zubr and the Type 071 can do its job better, and the Zubr can be build more cheaply and readily then the Type 072.
5) Maybe its because not all the Type 072 are spanking brand new ? Or that the existance of the Zubr and the Type 071 puts its use into question in the long run ?