054/A FFG Thread II

Bhurki

Junior Member
Registered Member
As ships are named based on propulsion configuration, i think 054x is done. Four diesel engines just wouldn't provide enough power for a new 346B based radar.
And being limited to frigate size, growing the number of auxillary powerplants will not be easy.
The two critical tech to look forward to are integrated MF radar and an IEPS powertrain. Going forward one of two things could happen-
1) 052e is chosen if powertrain is codog/codag.
2) 057 if IEPS matures.( both around 6-7kton)
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
As ships are named based on propulsion configuration, i think 054x is done. Four diesel engines just wouldn't provide enough power for a new 346B based radar.
And being limited to frigate size, growing the number of auxillary powerplants will not be easy.
The two critical tech to look forward to are integrated MF radar and an IEPS powertrain. Going forward one of two things could happen-
1) 052e is chosen if powertrain is codog/codag.
2) 057 if IEPS matures.( both around 6-7kton)


Diesel generators for the radars and systems would be separate from the drive train engines. Just like the 055 uses six 5MW diesel generators that are totally separate from the 4 28MW gas turbines. 12MW could more than sufficiently power a large AESA antenna alone, you probably need only 3 to 4MW. Thus its still possible for an all diesel powered frigate to feature high powered radars. The disuse of all diesel should come from the ship not being able to keep up with carriers if you have a 30+ knot requirement.

As for the 055, such a high power cannot be explained by the use of Gallium Nitride arrays alone; it can be for a future upgrade for a railgun, plus another possibility --- there are arrays under the bridge wing of the 055 that is too low to be radar but is the perfect place to put ECM. Could it be that the ship might be using Gallium Nitride on these large jammers?

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You can still use Gallium Nitride arrays even if you don't achieve maximum power, or if your ship cannot pump out the maximum power to reach its voltage breakdown potential. You can still enjoy the gains in sensitivity, which means that if equal power are pumped into two comparable radars, the one that uses Gallium Nitride for their receiver elements can still have an advantage over the Gallium Arsenide one due to increased sensitivity. For equal amounts of power, the Gallium Nitride array also produces less heat, efficiency and low heat generation why China prioritizes the use of Gallium Nitride for LED lighting applications such as public street lighting as well as for 5G arrays and base stations as it consumes less electricity and produces a lower power bill. It allows our radar array to be made lighter and cooler for the same power expenditure. That actually favors it for smaller ship or frigate use, like you see with the Asahi class, or the German F125 class of frigate, both of whom uses GaN based radars. GaN based TRS-4D is planned to be used on LCS ship from ship 20 and beyond, and this one is a small rotating antenna.

The use of lighter, cooler GaN powered AESA means you can place the arrays higher on an integrated mast above the bridge deck where you get a better view of the radar horizon. No need to install them on a Burke style deckhouse. Mount dual or multiband AESAs on an integrated mast above a 052B style body, and you're looking at something closer to a FREMM or Type 26.

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Modern frigates, particularly those in Europe, spearheaded the use of cutting edge AESA radars and stealthy designs on a warship. Although one might say all these ships should be light destroyers, but they have defined a new genre or concept to the frigate.

By doing this, they have raised the stakes among smaller ships. This means that if other smaller warships have to compete, they have to raise their designs to this new level. And this creates a chain reaction around the world.

They certainly have raised that goal post for the PLAN. That is why its likely the "conservative" design that is to be the 054B might have been skunked. It won't hold up against future frigate opposition. They look at Type 26, they look at FFG(X), they look at FREMM, and they look back at the 054B and think, ah that is not good. As it is even right now, the 054A is also behind its frigate competition.

So the PLAN goes back to the drawing boards. The 054B might be dead but they are still looking for a next generation future frigate to counter Type 26, FREMM and FFG(X).



They are still going with a cutting edge radar though, and is looking at modern European frigate designs. The Europeans redefined what it means to be a modern frigate; the US is looking to buy a European frigate that they can build in the US and place their own equipment.



This is true, however trimarans are not cutting edge.

All true, but have a few comments.

The key thing is that it is not a symmetric Frigate versus Frigate competition.
Chinese Frigates are not competing directly against opposing Frigates.

As long as you have a large enough fleet and enough ship types - Chinese Frigates are operating:
a) within the 1st Island Chain under friendly air cover. And enemy Frigates simply cannot survive in this environment without escorts.
and/or
b) outside the 1st Island Chain, where Chinese Frigates will still have some friendly air cover AND be accompanied by air defence destroyers.

If the Chinese Navy thinks there are opposing frigates and wants a surface action, then they might as well send Chinese destroyers after them.

Remember that the likely cost of a FFG(X) or Type-26 is actually $1000M+.
I agree that they are actually pocket destroyers.

So if the Chinese Navy wants to counter these ships, they might as well buy:
1. a Type-55 Large Destroyer (Cruiser) for $900M, which is somewhat cheaper.
2. or a Type-52D Destroyer for only $500M, which is only half the cost.

This goes back to what I said before that given the requirements of a high-end conflict COMPARED to the current fleet composition, the Chinese Navy have a surplus of Frigates, but a deficit in Destroyers. Just have a look for yourself.

So this also contributes to the delay in a Type-54A successor.
Plus you have the ongoing (and unfinished) revolution in how ASW warfare will conducted in the future, due to the introduction of UAVs, UUVs, USVs and AI.

---

And a Trimaran hull and propulsion layout is a *new* design for the Chinese Navy.
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
All true, but have a few comments.

The key thing is that it is not a symmetric Frigate versus Frigate competition.
Chinese Frigates are not competing directly against opposing Frigates.

As long as you have a large enough fleet and enough ship types - Chinese Frigates are operating:
a) within the 1st Island Chain under friendly air cover. And enemy Frigates simply cannot survive in this environment without escorts.
and/or
b) outside the 1st Island Chain, where Chinese Frigates will still have some friendly air cover AND be accompanied by air defence destroyers.

If the Chinese Navy thinks there are opposing frigates and wants a surface action, then they might as well send Chinese destroyers after them.

Nope. Still back to JIang Zhemin and Hu Jin Tao thinking. The very idea that the Chinese frigate is crippled and needs to rely on air cover from land.

Xi Jing Ping thinking is far more ambitious. Chinese frigates need to support aircraft carrier, LPD and LHD operations in blue water without air cover. They are the ones that need to provide protection for the other ships. You need the kind of ships that needs to operate well away from 1st Island Chain because you want ships to protect the BRI and BRIC trade routes. They are the ones that need to escort the destroyers themselves.


Remember that the likely cost of a FFG(X) or Type-26 is actually $1000M+.
I agree that they are actually pocket destroyers.

So if the Chinese Navy wants to counter these ships, they might as well buy:
1. a Type-55 Large Destroyer (Cruiser) for $900M, which is somewhat cheaper.
2. or a Type-52D Destroyer for only $500M, which is only half the cost.

Don't go through the distorted lens of using PPP. From absolute money terms, it may cost $900M, but relative to PPP, that may feel like it cost $3 billion for them.

This goes back to what I said before that given the requirements of a high-end conflict COMPARED to the current fleet composition, the Chinese Navy have a surplus of Frigates, but a deficit in Destroyers. Just have a look for yourself.

That is because the frigates are rushed into production as a stop gap for destroyers.

So this also contributes to the delay in a Type-54A successor.
Plus you have the ongoing (and unfinished) revolution in how ASW warfare will conducted in the future, due to the introduction of UAVs, UUVs, USVs and AI.

---

And a Trimaran hull and propulsion layout is a *new* design for the Chinese Navy.

Not.


trimaran.jpg
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Nope. Still back to JIang Zhemin and Hu Jin Tao thinking. The very idea that the Chinese frigate is crippled and needs to rely on air cover from land.

Xi Jing Ping thinking is far more ambitious. Chinese frigates need to support aircraft carrier, LPD and LHD operations in blue water without air cover. They are the ones that need to provide protection for the other ships. You need the kind of ships that needs to operate well away from 1st Island Chain because you want ships to protect the BRI and BRIC trade routes. They are the ones that need to escort the destroyers themselves.

Bluntly speaking, the Chinese Navy will not be a position to waste warships on long-distance convoy shipping for another 15+ years.
Remember that in a high-intensity conflict, the 1st and 2nd island chains will still be contested ocean.
Targets on the Chinese mainland would still be subject to attack.
So how useful is it to divert resources to long-distance convoy frigates?

And there are 100+ AEGIS warships and 10 carriers which could easily dominate the waters beyond the 2nd island chain.
Chinese Frigates can't survive in that environment.

But as long as the South China Seas are relatively secure, China's long-distance shipping can be intermingled with that from all the ASEAN nations.
Remember that China is the same size as the continent spanning USA, so China can be largely self-sufficient within its own borders.
Particularly with overland trade with its neighbours and some of those seaborne trade links.

Plus I wouldn't categorise thinking as Xi Jinping or Jiang Zhemin or Hu Jintao.
It's requirements versus resources available for given timeframes in the future.

In the Orbat thread, remember that my minimum estimate is a Chinese Navy equivalent to the US Navy.
But I think it more likely that the Chinese Navy will be 50% larger in the long-run.

However naval ships (particularly carriers) take a long time to build.
It's going to be at least 2035 before the Chinese Navy has 6 carriers, potentially for use beyond the 2nd island chain.
Hence the focus on the 1st and 2nd island chains first.

And if the Chinese military can secure the 1st island chain, China will have achieved all of its core political and military objectives.
There's no reason for a potential war or conflict to continue afterwards.

Don't go through the distorted lens of using PPP. From absolute money terms, it may cost $900M, but relative to PPP, that may feel like it cost $3 billion for them.

Relative to PPP, a Chinese $900M Type-55 probably feels like the US$1800M Arleigh Burke. I think $3 Billion is too high.

Note I also added in the example of a Type-52D destroyer which is only half the cost of a Type-26 or FFG(X).
From a PPP perspective, they are all around $1000M. But a destroyer should be able to sink a Frigate comparatively easily.
So it makes sense for the Chinese Navy to buy actual destroyers, if they want to send them against those Frigates.
But doing so doesn't make sense, because long-range airborne detection and strike is a far superior method.

That is because the frigates are rushed into production as a stop gap for destroyers.

I agree with your statement.
At the time, the Type-54 Frigate was the best ship that Chinese industry could produce. I remember when they first came out.
And those 30+ ships are never going to waste, because they are still good for Convoy and ASW duties.
But now Chinese industry is capable of producing high-end AEGIS destroyers, and needs to focus on these.

Anyway, back on topic now.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Bluntly speaking, the Chinese Navy will not be a position to waste warships on long-distance convoy shipping for another 15+ years.
Remember that in a high-intensity conflict, the 1st and 2nd island chains will still be contested ocean.
Targets on the Chinese mainland would still be subject to attack.
So how useful is it to divert resources to long-distance convoy frigates?

Oh? You think that long distance convoy frigates can't be the same ships that can be used to push your naval dominance to the 1st and 2nd island chain? Its more likely it would be the same ships.

And there are 100+ AEGIS warships and 10 carriers which could easily dominate the waters beyond the 2nd island chain.
Chinese Frigates can't survive in that environment.

Ships are not afraid of other ships per se. What the future Chinese frigate needs to be is survivability versus Growlers, LRASMs, JASSMs, NSMs and so on. It doesn't matter if you have 32 VLS, 64 VLS or 112 VLS. This is a sensor and networking intensive job, and with the advancing state of technology, there is nothing there you can't exempt a frigate from having this sensor and networking capability. You seem to forget that AEGIS like technologies can be used with frigates and has been done many times already.

But as long as the South China Seas are relatively secure, China's long-distance shipping can be intermingled with that from all the ASEAN nations.

This fails to consider your can cut off access to the SCS via the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean.

Remember that China is the same size as the continent spanning USA, so China can be largely self-sufficient within its own borders.

I don't think so, considering how much oil China imports from the Middle East, how much minerals they import from Africa, Australia and South America, and how much food they import from Australia and South America.

Particularly with overland trade with its neighbours and some of those seaborne trade links.

Overland trade is not enough.

Plus I wouldn't categorise thinking as Xi Jinping or Jiang Zhemin or Hu Jintao.
It's requirements versus resources available for given timeframes in the future.

There is a difference between all three when it comes to their vision of China. Xi Jing Ping is certainly the most ambitious and the most global.

In the Orbat thread, remember that my minimum estimate is a Chinese Navy equivalent to the US Navy.
But I think it more likely that the Chinese Navy will be 50% larger in the long-run.

You cannot assume that production of the same type of ship will continue indefinitely. 30+ 052D is probably enough, the design of the ship itself is already teethering on the edge of obsolescence. Its current radar setup is in need for an overhaul, as secondary radars are outdated, complicated and redundant and can be rationalized with fewer and more advanced radars. A successor to the 052D is needed, but one that can't be more expensive. It needs to be cheaper, yet more capable.

However naval ships (particularly carriers) take a long time to build.
It's going to be at least 2035 before the Chinese Navy has 6 carriers, potentially for use beyond the 2nd island chain.
Hence the focus on the 1st and 2nd island chains first.

Exactly where the advanced frigates comes in. In order to attain the significant and concentrated numerical superiority the PLAN strives to, you cannot rely on Type 055 and 052D alone. You need a new breed of advanced frigates.

Relative to PPP, a Chinese $900M Type-55 probably feels like the US$1800M Arleigh Burke. I think $3 Billion is too high.

Note I also added in the example of a Type-52D destroyer which is only half the cost of a Type-26 or FFG(X).
From a PPP perspective, they are all around $1000M. But a destroyer should be able to sink a Frigate comparatively easily.

What? A destroyer would take as much trouble to sink another frigate as it would take a destroyer, assuming the frigate has advance AAW defensive capabilities.

So it makes sense for the Chinese Navy to buy actual destroyers, if they want to send them against those Frigates.
But doing so doesn't make sense, because long-range airborne detection and strike is a far superior method.

If you are to take a frigate with sufficient level of electronics advancement, a destroyer will have a hard time beating the frigate. Let's take an Arleigh Burke, versus a German Sachsen class, or a Dutch De Seven Provincien class, or a Spanish F100/Hobart class, or a French or Italian FREMM, the Australian Hunter class, even the USN FFG(X). The only time the advance frigate would lose if when the frigate runs out of missiles, which can include quad pack SAMs, but then again, the frigate can still use its guns, CIWS, decoys, and ECM to counter missiles, enough to potentially lead to a draw as the opposing destroyer runs out of antiship missiles. A modern advanced frigate has a very good chance of stopping at least 16 to well over 32+ antiship missiles thrown at it, maybe even more, and this is more antiship missiles destroyers will have since a destroyer will likely have more SAMs than antiship missiles. 32 VLS with quad packing means 128 short to medium ranged SAMs, and that would take a lot of missiles to overwhelm.

I agree with your statement.
At the time, the Type-54 Frigate was the best ship that Chinese industry could produce. I remember when they first came out.
And those 30+ ships are never going to waste, because they are still good for Convoy and ASW duties.
But now Chinese industry is capable of producing high-end AEGIS destroyers, and needs to focus on these.

Anyway, back on topic now.

What you have forgotten is that the Chinese industry is now capable of producing the next generation of AEGIS like frigates if you allow it to. Something in line with FFG(X), FREMM, the Sachsen class, the Iver Huitfeldt class, the De Seven Provincien class, and the Admiral Gorshkov class. Or AEGIS like light destroyers, which is just a matter of terminology, like for example, the Akizuki and the Asahi class. The FFG(X) costs only $850 million and the Asahi class only cost $660 million. Yet for well less than $1 billion, you have a ship that offers all around AESA phase arrays scanning all 360 degrees around the ship, detect targets for hundreds of kilometers, track hundreds of targets, and engage multiple targets concurrently.

If you fail to do so, it would be your Type 055s and 052Ds that have to deal with advanced frigates and light destroyers that can be mass produced like FFG(X), Hunter class, Akizuki class, Type 26 or FREMM. All these smaller ships still have astounding defensive capabilities and can still neutralize the offensive capabilities of your more expensive ships. That's why these modern frigates exist.
 
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by78

General
Type 054a firing Yu-8 ASRoc
View attachment 55610

Re-posting old photos of ASRoc launch. All images are high-resolution.

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