PLAN Type 035/039/091/092 Submarine Thread

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I wasn't comfortable with the sense of proportion but it seems to be some serious telephoto flattening effect. No doubt someone took a long lens here. But the picture appears to be from a bbs poster named 007 who has posted many good pictures before, and the sudden take down of the picture from the sina bbs, suggesting prompt censorship,and suggesting there is something more to it.

 

[Roger604]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

The current designs of PLAN subs are much greatly improved over past designs and the capability gap with the latest Western designs have closed, but not right there yet with the best. What they have now is a fertile ground of experimentation and experience, and the next generation of PLAN nuclear and conventional subs are what you should watch out for.

I somewhat disagree with this on conventional subs. I think the new Yuan subs are pretty much a mature platform comparable to the rest of the world like the Soryu class. If there are differences, they are incremental, not generational differences.

If the conventional subs have reached a plateau, then I think they might want to "skip a generation" and go straight to small nuclear subs or hydromagnetic drives. This would bypass a generation of large nuclear subs (like the Trafalgars or Astutes).

 

[maozedong]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I think the one was in Wuhan floating dock is very good,China already create a couple these.what I think this type of Yuan already technically mature and mass production, because there are three different Yuan previous meta-level testing, which finally create two of the latest type of new Yuan from Wuhan shipyard , it is foreseeable PLAN they will be in service for a period of time until the new generation of conventional submarines there.
Sources pointed out that China is studying magnetohydrodynamic drive, if successful will be used in China's nuclear and conventional submarines on.
I think this is a new generation of submarines?

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

I think the one was in Wuhan floating dock is very good,China already create a couple these.what I think this type of Yuan already technically mature and mass production, because there are three different Yuan previous meta-level testing, which finally create two of the latest type of new Yuan from Wuhan shipyard , it is foreseeable PLAN they will be in service for a period of time until the new generation of conventional submarines there.
Sources pointed out that China is studying magnetohydrodynamic drive, if successful will be used in China's nuclear and conventional submarines on.
I think this is a new generation of submarines?

Only the one that just got launched in Wuhan is the new Yuan type. The one that was in the water was the old type of Yuan. And same with the one that is undergoing sea test in Shanghai.

I somewhat disagree with this on conventional subs. I think the new Yuan subs are pretty much a mature platform comparable to the rest of the world like the Soryu class. If there are differences, they are incremental, not generational differences.

If the conventional subs have reached a plateau, then I think they might want to "skip a generation" and go straight to small nuclear subs or hydromagnetic drives. This would bypass a generation of large nuclear subs (like the Trafalgars or Astutes).

don't expect too much out of Chinese submarines. They are generally cautious in China and would rather do incremental changes than generational changes. Look at how long it took between the first and second Yuan. And there was probably a whole year between the last launched song and second launched Yuan. They've come quite a bit, but still got a way to go before catching up to Collins and Soryu class.

 

[beijingcar]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

the aussie's Collins class is not a very good Sub, being overpriced, underpowerd( actural top speed below design projections), and noisey. Soryu class is somethingelse. But since we do not for sure know if the improved Yuan has AIP or not( I do believe the Improved Yuan has the AIP), the Soryu is better on paper at least. as far as I know there are
17 improved Mings
12 Kilos
1 Song
13 improved Song
2 Yuan
1 improved Yuan
1 092 Xia (in major refit, many believe there are one more)
3 091 Modernized Han( the first two out of total of 5 are retired)
3 094
4 093
total of 58 boats if include one 031 Gulf class which has not being set sail for a long time.
Both Wuhan and JN yard are to produce the improved Yuan class, I think we will see about three new Yuan a year from these two shipyards( two from WH, one from JN a year), the PLAN wants to replace the improved Ming in a hurry. With the HULUDAO yard in expansion, I think they can produce 2 SSN or SSBN a year. So total new boats come into service in any given year is about 5. Of course they can speed the production up, especially at JN.

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

the aussie's Collins class is not a very good Sub, being overpriced, underpowerd( actural top speed below design projections), and noisey. Soryu class is somethingelse. But since we do not for sure know if the improved Yuan has AIP or not( I do believe the Improved Yuan has the AIP), the Soryu is better on paper at least. as far as I know there are
17 improved Mings
12 Kilos
1 Song
13 improved Song
2 Yuan
1 improved Yuan
1 092 Xia (in major refit, many believe there are one more)
3 091 Modernized Han( the first two out of total of 5 are retired)
3 094
4 093
total of 58 boats if include one 031 Gulf class which has not being set sail for a long time.
Both Wuhan and JN yard are to produce the improved Yuan class, I think we will see about three new Yuan a year from these two shipyards( two from WH, one from JN a year), the PLAN wants to replace the improved Ming in a hurry. With the HULUDAO yard in expansion, I think they can produce 2 SSN or SSBN a year. So total new boats come into service in any given year is about 5. Of course they can speed the production up, especially at JN.

That's just bad PR. Collins class is right up there with Oyashio/Soryu in terms of quietness, range (for a diesel sub), sensor suite and such.

Anyhow, more pictures of Yuan from recently.

 

[Roger604]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

don't expect too much out of Chinese submarines. They are generally cautious in China and would rather do incremental changes than generational changes. Look at how long it took between the first and second Yuan. And there was probably a whole year between the last launched song and second launched Yuan. They've come quite a bit, but still got a way to go before catching up to Collins and Soryu class.

Will they arrive at the conclusion that large advanced SSN's like the ones built by UK and US are an evolutionary dead-end with active sonars nowadays? The next step is small nuclear subs. This is a great opportunity for generation skipping.

After the current Yuan and current Shang, the next step should be to research a small nuclear and battery powered hydromagnetic sub. Getting there before anybody else would give you an immediate lasting advantage.

 

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Only the one that just got launched in Wuhan is the new Yuan type. The one that was in the water was the old type of Yuan. And same with the one that is undergoing sea test in Shanghai.

Not necessarily the old type of Yuan. The one in Shanghai clearly has a number of refining changes in the sail and limber holes. It also definitely sinks lower than the original Yuan, suggesting an increase in surface displacement.

Please do note that HSH fumbled on some of his pictures when he got mixed up and posted pictures of the old Yuan when it was in Shanghai, right when he was posting pics of the second Yuan as well.

There may even be more changes on the third Yuan, but it seems puzzling for me why launch two Yuans having differences with each other right at about the same time. Unless the second Yuan is actually the last of its "batch" which implies there may have been launching of the "second type" prior to this---again we really cannot on random bits of information as the last word as to actually how many subs are out there. That's why there are these calls for transparency.

Do note September 20 2007 picture when there are two Yuans in the water near the dock framed by scaffolding. Are they still the same subs we are seeing in the December 2007 photos?

 

[tphuang]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

Not necessarily the old type of Yuan. The one in Shanghai clearly has a number of refining changes in the sail and limber holes. It also definitely sinks lower than the original Yuan, suggesting an increase in surface displacement.

Please do note that HSH fumbled on some of his pictures when he got mixed up and posted pictures of the old Yuan when it was in Shanghai, right when he was posting pics of the second Yuan as well.

There may even be more changes on the third Yuan, but it seems puzzling for me why launch two Yuans having differences with each other right at about the same time. Unless the second Yuan is actually the last of its "batch" which implies there may have been launching of the "second type" prior to this---again we really cannot on random bits of information as the last word as to actually how many subs are out there. That's why there are these calls for transparency.

Do note September 20 2007 picture when there are two Yuans in the water near the dock framed by scaffolding. Are they still the same subs we are seeing in the December 2007 photos?

yeah, there are some minor differences, but I wouldn't call them a new mod. The new "Yuan" we saw actually looks like a new type of submarine. The attached photo, it seems that the one under construction is in the mode of the earlier Yuans. This is from looking at the hump.

 

[crobato]

Re: PLAN submarines Thread II

If you notice closely at the tower, there are two of them. Look closely and notice that the two subs are in the water---which means they're not under construction, they already are constructed. They appear in the process of being fitted, and I have some doubts these two subs are the same as the ones in the December photos.