Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

solarz said:

DF-21, J-20, the Varyag, those are all milestones, and the US is starting to realize that in the not-too-far future, it will no longer be able to rely on its technological supremacy.

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As I stated, the DF-21 has not had an operational test of any kind that we have seen. If they test it in the open, ie. firing it far out to sea on a test range, we will see it. We haven't. The J-20 is many years away from production...even the PRC states this. I believe they did get this prototype or technology demonstrator out faster than the US thought...but it is still a long ways from production. The F-35 will be out in all three variants, in production and being used, probably before the first J-20 production craft enters actual service with the PLAAF. But we shall see.

I expect the Varyag will be launched and start testing this year....but again, it will be at least a year, and probably two before she is actually commissioned.

Now, all those things are ultimately going to happen...but as I said, the US will probably already have introduced production systems to counter them before they are...in fact, with the DF-21 that has alrady happened with BMD, which is operational on US AEGIS ships today. With the J-20, as I stated, the F-35 and the F-22 are already there (atually first USAF F-35 in production late this year and next).

And then there is the really exotic stuff like the laser testing I pointed you towards. The US is testing that now and publishing it for everyone to see.

Anyhow, IMHO, all of this points matter-of-factly to the point of this thread. Is the Carrier age over? When you look at all of the technologies being produced to attack and defend them, it is pretty clear both sides realize that that age is not over...in fact, IMHO, no where near.

Carrier type ships are in fact proliferating right now to many different countries...the age is still in a growth mode. Time will tell.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Jeff Head said:

The Soviets were prepared to launch REGIMENTS of Backfire and Bear bombers loaded up with very fast and powerful cruise missiles to try and overpower a AEGIS defended carrier strike group. They figured they would have to launch hundreds of missiles.

I believe individual DF-2s are going to cost more than those individual cruise missiles. It is a more sophisticated and much larger weapon.

It will be difficult for such a missile to come in barrage numbers and overwhelm AEGIS. They may try...and given enough time and money and practise, they may develop a system that has a chance. But they are a long long way from that and the US Navy is not a stationary target either.

By the time the DF-21 gets here in those numbers, the US Navy will have laser or particle energy weapons that will shoot at the speed of light. It's already being tested. The US Navy research center tested a Mega-watt laser just recently. tested it verifiably I might add out there for all to see. Not just talked about it.

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I think you'll also find that the article you quote presages the demise of the carrier since if it works aircraft will be swept from the skies.

Although it's probably a little premature to claim megawatt laser capabilities as what's been produced is "an injector capable of producing the electrons needed to generate megawatt-class laser beams"

The actual output of the prototype is 14KW! Just a couple of orders of magnitude to go I am sure it won't be long.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

hkbc said:

I think you'll also find that the article you quote presages the demise of the carrier since if it works aircraft will be swept from the skies.

Although it's probably a little premature to claim megawatt laser capabilities as what's been produced is "an injector capable of producing the electrons needed to generate megawatt-class laser beams"

The actual output of the prototype is 14KW! Just a couple of orders of magnitude to go I am sure it won't be long.

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The 14 KW is not something they just produced. That working prototype was produced 3 years ago. They are working towards a 100 kw prototype by 2018, which will be weapons grade.

70KW will produce a 1 MegaWatt beam.

The project to produce that weapons grade prototype by 2018 is currently ahead of schedule with this latest milestone. The injectors are absolutley necessary to produce the electrons that will fuel the laser. And they have now shown the injectors capable of doing what they need.

Yes...there's a ways to go...but do not dismiss it. Steady progress is being made and if an FEL laser is produced it will be a monumental achievement for fleet defense.

...an achievement that will not, btw, negate carriers. It will protect them so they can go about their business. One of the hopes for the F-35 ultimately is to arm it with some sort of laser itself. So, as the defense technology proceeds, the strike technology that the carrier embarks does also.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

bd popeye said:

True some what... however the only one of those weapons even remotely close to deploying is the Varyag.

As for the DF-21. The missile more than likely is undergoing testing...Let's see some verified testing..then I shall believe.

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May be it works may be it doesn't, none the less, the USN seems to be spending a lot of money on upgrading a lot of AEGIS vessels to deal with BMD, not sure it really needs that many to fend off the North Korean missiles after all they have been tested and don't work that well. I suppose it's not you that anyone's trying to make a believer of and the target audience are already believers or maybe it's just a defense contractor or two drumming up scare stories to keep business going in these lean times!

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Jeff Head said:

...an achievement that will not, btw, negate carriers. It will protect them so they can go about their business. One of the hopes for the F-35 ultimately is to arm it with some sort of laser itself. So, as the defense technology proceeds, the strike technology that the carrier embarks does also.

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Surely this is missing the point so what when and if a system designed to sweep hypersonic missiles from the sky is deployed its going to make mincemeat of strike aircraft size targets. As the usefulness of a carrier is it's ability to deploy a strike wing to attack the enemy and a fighter wing to defend itself would it not be rendered some what impotent, in the face of such a system?

Unless the contention is that only the US will master the technology and no one else so it alone can continue to have a use for carriers, I can't see the logic. The power of a carrier is the ability of it's air wings to strike and to keep an aggressor, at arms length, remove that advantage and it becomes a big target. If MW lasers are going to sweep all before it then what would be the use of a carrier?

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

hkbc said:

If MW lasers are going to sweep all before it then what would be the use of a carrier?

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To do as they have done and are doing today, to project power. To assume that China, or any other power will eventually match America's capability today ignores the fact that by that time American technology will have moved that much farther ahead. I believe a democratic capitalist system allows a freer exchange of ideas and thoughts in regards to technology than a totalitarian capitalist system. I don't care if some may vehemently disagree with my opinion, but until I am presented with facts, I will stand by it. Knowledge and words are cheap, but new knowledge and deeds, not so much. China is a very large manufacturing economy, but not a knowledge economy as is the United States.

But to answer your question about when the time does come, when a power like China does have significant directed energy weapons out the wazoo, I would just assume aircraft are just going to have to get that much more stealthier and the tactics would have to be just that much better. Laser jammers are not outside the realm of possibility.

Both Japan and the US had aircraft carriers during WW2 that were fairly evenly matched. So why did the US win? Breaking Japanese codes helped tremendously, the best American pilots were snatched from the front lines and sent to the rear to train new pilots. The Japanese kept all their pilots in battle, losing them bit by bit so that no veteran could teach the new guys important new tactics. American radar use was wide-spread, but rare for the Japanese. The list goes on and on.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

jantxv said:

To do as they have done and are doing today, to project power. To assume that China, or any other power will eventually match America's capability today ignores the fact that by that time American technology will have moved that much farther ahead. I believe a democratic capitalist system allows a freer exchange of ideas and thoughts in regards to technology than a totalitarian capitalist system. I don't care if some may vehemently disagree with my opinion, but until I am presented with facts, I will stand by it. Knowledge and words are cheap, but new knowledge and deeds, not so much. China is a very large manufacturing economy, but not a knowledge economy as is the United States.

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To assume that the USA, or any other nation for that matter, will always remain at the top, is to ignore everything that history has taught us.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

Both Japan and the US had aircraft carriers during WW2 that were fairly evenly matched. So why did the US win? Breaking Japanese codes helped tremendously, the best American pilots were snatched from the front lines and sent to the rear to train new pilots. The Japanese kept all their pilots in battle, losing them bit by bit so that no veteran could teach the new guys important new tactics. American radar use was wide-spread, but rare for the Japanese. The list goes on and on

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True..in addition the USN ships company were better trained than the Japanese. Especially in damage control. They performed drill after drill after drill. And the USN rotated their ships, albeit not very frequently, to ports i.e. Hawaii, Seattle, San Francisco, San Pedro(Long Beach) & of course San Diego and recreation & repair areas like Ulithi atoll.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

hkbc said:

Surely this is missing the point so what when and if a system designed to sweep hypersonic missiles from the sky is deployed its going to make mincemeat of strike aircraft size targets. As the usefulness of a carrier is it's ability to deploy a strike wing to attack the enemy and a fighter wing to defend itself would it not be rendered some what impotent, in the face of such a system?

Unless the contention is that only the US will master the technology and no one else so it alone can continue to have a use for carriers, I can't see the logic. The power of a carrier is the ability of it's air wings to strike and to keep an aggressor, at arms length, remove that advantage and it becomes a big target. If MW lasers are going to sweep all before it then what would be the use of a carrier?

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No, it hust means that the carrier will employ strike aircraft and personnel that counter that threat just as they are countering the threats of today.

No doubt, somewhere in the future, carriers will be negated. It's just not about to happen in the next few years. My guess is that they will be plowing the seas fifty years from now...we're talking that type of time frame...if not longer perhaps.

...and their demise will probably come more about as a reult of technologies that allow their mission to be employed in a different fashion as much, if not more so, than them being done away with as a result of a threat.

For example, a carrier's principle strength is to be able to project power through its airwing, or defend with its airwing, other assets (like a amphibious force) that is projecting power. One day, technologies will allow that power projection to be economically and tactically employed better than with todays current carriers and then you will see new platforms developed for that purpose. That's just my opnion though.

Re: The End of the Carrier Age?

I don't think the aircraft carrier will loose it's viability as a weapon until something comes along that makes aircraft obsolete. Until that day comes, the navy that can bring aircraft with it into combat and is able to employ them offensively and defensively will prevail over the rival that lacks organic airpower. I don't think anyone will argue that that Chinese or any other navy could operate outside land based air cover against an aircraft carrier equipped foe.
Lasers are a line of sight weapon. If your target is over the horizon, you either have to employ a different weapon or find a way to transport the laser to within line of sight of the target. Lasers are not going to replace aircraft, though some form of laser will likely become an anti-aircraft weapon (again, only line of sight) or be used to counter ballistic missile warheads.