Is it too late now to refit J-10 and FC-1 with license produced Euro Engines?

Discussion in 'Air Force' started by lilzz, Mar 4, 2010.

  1. lilzz
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    lilzz Banned Idiot

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    Russia not willing to give CHina RD-99 and AL-31 license production, now everything has to go through Russia. That's the bottleneck.

    Is it too late now to refit FC-1 and J-10 with license production of an Euro engine from Rolls Royce, Safran, or MTB? If that's possible it would be great.

    I mean JH-7A was using the Sprey derivatives from RR before.

    FC-1 will have a ton of orders from third world countries.
     
  2. rhino123
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    rhino123 Pencil Pusher
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    Actually I think even if China was to fit engines from foreign sources, they would still meet with the same bottleneck (not now... but in foreseeable future too). Since China already had a running domestic engine program such as WS-10a, I believe it would be feasible for China to actually market her FC-1 out using WS-10a, rather than foreign engine.
     
  3. lilzz
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    lilzz Banned Idiot

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    Why the bottleneck? China if given the recipe, the control process, should have plenty of manpowers , and facility to crank out huge number of license produced engines.

    It's learning nothing from using those Russian engines.

    WS10A? who knows how long for it to mature and become stable, anywhere from couple yrs to maybe another 10 yrs. You can't depend on that.

    Also, China is not going to war anytime soon, so what's hurry to build bunch of J-10 with AL-31?

    Maybe they should stop that J10 with AL-31 program. Spend sometimes to play with other stuffs and hopefully learn something while doing that.

    Same with FC-1.
     
    #3 lilzz, Mar 4, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2010
  4. rhino123
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    rhino123 Pencil Pusher
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    Technically it is not a hurdle. By the number of the engines that China could build is defined by the contract in which they entered with the said company. And these contract are subjected to changes. What happen if the company do not want to renew the contract when the said number of engines are being manufactured or there are a dispute in which nation China could export their fighters with the said engines.

    This is the bottleneck. It is not just technical or reading straightly from the contract. What we are more interested in is the future of the project. For example, if China was to sell their fighters to a third country which happen to have a bad reputation to the nation of the parent company (say UK for Rolls Royce), I believe UK will start making hell of a lot of noises and even terminate the contract for China to license build their engines.

    And when that happen, there is only two options for China,

    1) Terminate her contract with the third country in order to fulfil her relation with UK or whatever the parent country is based on.

    2) Carry on building the engine even when the contract had been terminated (not a very good idea, it will only show that China is an irresponsible nation).

    The abovementioned is a simple example, in true life it is never that simple... because we might even be looking at 2 to 3 tier of relationships... I think the simplest way is to market your fighter out using domestic engine to get out of these complications.
     
  5. lilzz
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    lilzz Banned Idiot

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    of course if you have a mature domestic engine, that would be great but it hard to attain.

    But here's how I rank

    Domestic engine score of 10 (hard to attain)
    License produced engine score of 5
    purchase fully made engine score of 1 (easy to get)

    even if China license prodcued a few batch, it would still help them on the learning curve.

    Even if the WS-10a isn't a fully mature design it would still be better to mass produce it first and work out the kinks as needed, having crappy stuff now is still more useful than nothing at all.

    Well, anything is better than the monopolized Russian ready made engines.

    Again, China is not going to war anytime soon, therefore no sense in building a whole bunch of idle J10 with AL-31s.

    basically saying the Russian spy scientists working with China on WS10A purposedly sabotage or withholding or mislead on crucial information and paramters therefore WS10A only good for prototype but not good enough for mass production and long term stability.


    俄军工联合俄政府一起谋杀了中国太行发动机真相(2010-03-05 14:02:17)

    家想想吧,一旦涡扇10/10A研制成功并生产定型,将带来的巨大的,可怕的,非常严重的后果!


    所以涡扇10/10A只能科研定型/设计定型,决不能生产定型啊.当然这巨大的,可怕的,非常严重的后果是针对对俄罗斯而言.不是么,首先从进口AL- 31F/31FN中吃回扣的,接受贿赂的,他们怎么办啊,你们想过么,其次,最主要的,你们想想,俄罗斯军工航空企业,现在有那些可以出口的,不就是苏- 27系列发展型么

    如果涡扇10/10A生产定型的话,全国产化的苏-27即J-11系列,还能受到制约么? 火控雷达等电子设备中国发展很快啊.

    俄罗斯方面已经说过:J-10"猛龙"将成为传统出口市场强有力的竞争者,所以J-10"猛龙"装备涡扇10/10A生产定型发动机,出口市场是非常广大的,这里你们想想J-10"猛龙"的出口会对美国战机F-15,F-16 F-18 F-35等系列的出口有多大负面影响啊,别忘了战斗机出口市场是讲政治的,所以J-10"猛龙"的出口不会对美国战斗机出口产生多大的影响,因为能买F- 16战斗机的大多数是和美国一伙的,没有和美国一伙的,是会买不到F-16的,

    还可以这么说,J-10"猛龙"的出口反而会促进美国战斗机的出口,这个么,自己想吧.

    J-10"猛龙"出口的潜在国家很多是买不到F-16的,但可以买到苏-27或米格-29系列啊!J-10"猛龙"的出口会对俄罗斯的战斗机产生巨大的影响啊,会极大挤占俄罗斯战斗机出口市场啊,俄罗斯才是 J-10"猛龙"出口的巨大阻挠者,破坏者啊,

    俄罗斯军工航空企业为了能够控制住中国,联合俄罗斯政府在两个方面对中国进行控制:第一“不允许中国引进AL31的生产制造技术”既不授予中国AL31发动机的生产许可证, 第二,阻挠中国的涡扇10/10A生产定型既批量生产。

    怎么破坏涡扇10/10A生产定型呢,手段就是帮助中国设计制造涡扇10/10A发动机啊!

    苏联解体后,中国从俄罗斯引进了大量的原苏联的航空发动机设计专家及工程师,他们参与到了涡扇10/10A发动机的设计制造当中,他们当中有一小部分,当然这一小部分是很优秀的专家及工程师,这一小部分专家及工程师是俄罗斯暗地里派过来的帮助中国设计制造"涡扇10/10A发动机",比如说某个零件制造工艺当中,只要在提供的加工工艺资料中,在温控、配方成分上稍微动一点手脚(提供的资料,他们是很优秀的专家及工程师),材料的性能差距就出来了,生产出来就达不到规定的强度和耐久性,可靠性。还有比如在A结构设计当中,动一点手脚,当然A结构设计是没有问题的,可是当发动机工作一段时间后, 因为A结构设计却对B结构或C结构产生结构疲劳破坏,使发动机的整体的可靠性与耐久性大幅度下降,这样大家想想吧,一旦涡扇10/10A研制成功并生产定型,将带来的巨大的,可怕的,非常严重的后果!!!!!!!!!!!!

    所以涡扇10/10A只能科研定型/设计定型,决不能生产定型啊.当然这巨大的,可怕的,非常严重的后果是针对对俄罗斯而言.

    不是么,首先从进口AL-31F/31FN中吃回扣的,接受贿赂的,他们怎么办啊,你们想过么,

    其次,最主要的,你们想想,俄罗斯军工航空企业,现在有那些可以出口的,不就是苏-27系列发展型么,

    如果涡扇10/10A生产定型的话,全国产化的苏-27即J-11系列,还能受到制约么? 火控雷达等电子设备中国发展很快啊.

    俄罗斯方面已经说过:J-10"猛龙"将成为传统出口市场强有力的竞争者,所以J-10"猛龙"装备涡扇10/10A生产定型发动机,出口市场是非常广大的,这里你们想想J-10"猛龙"的出口会对美国战机F-15,F-16 F-18 F-35等系列的出口有多大负面影响啊,别忘了战斗机出口市场是讲政治的,所以J-10"猛龙"的出口不会对美国战斗机出口产生多大的影响,因为能买F- 16战斗机的大多数是和美国一伙的,没有和美国一伙的,是会买不到F-16的,

    还可以这么说,J-10"猛龙"的出口反而会促进美国战斗机的出口,这个么,自己想吧.

    J-10"猛龙"出口的潜在国家很多是买不到F-16的,但可以买到苏-27或米格-29系列啊!J-10"猛龙"的出口会对俄罗斯的战斗机产生巨大的影响啊,会极大挤占俄罗斯战斗机出口市场啊,俄罗斯才是 J-10"猛龙"出口的巨大阻挠者,破坏者啊,

    俄罗斯军工航空企业为了能够控制住中国,联合俄罗斯政府在两个方面对中国进行控制:第一“不允许中国引进AL31的生产制造技术”既不授予中国AL31发动机的生产许可证, 第二,阻挠中国的涡扇10/10A生产定型既批量生产。,

    怎么破坏涡扇10/10A生产定型呢,手段就是帮助中国设计制造涡扇10/10A发动机啊!

    苏联解体后,中国从俄罗斯引进了大量的原苏联的航空发动机设计专家及工程师,他们参与到了涡扇10/10A发动机的设计制造当中,他们当中有一小部分,当然这一小部分是很优秀的专家及工程师,这一小部分专家及工程师是俄罗斯暗地里派过来的帮助中国设计制造"涡扇10/10A发动机",比如说某个零件制造工艺当中,只要在提供的加工工艺资料中,在温控、配方成分上稍微动一点手脚(提供的资料,他们是很优秀的专家及工程师),材料的性能差距就出来了,生产出来就达不到规定的强度和耐久性,可靠性。还有比如在A结构设计当中,动一点手脚,当然A结构设计是没有问题的,可是当发动机工作一段时间后, 因为A结构设计却对B结构或C结构产生结构疲劳破坏,使发动机的整体的可靠性与耐久性大幅度下降,这样涡扇10/10A发动机就不能生产定型,也不可能大规模生产啊

    所以是俄罗斯军工航空企业联合俄罗斯政府一起谋杀了涡扇10/10A发动机!这一小部分很优秀的专家及工程师是俄罗斯的商业间谍啊,就不能生产定型,也不可能大规模生产啊。
     
    #5 lilzz, Mar 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2010
  6. tphuang
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    tphuang Brigadier
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    okay, that article you posted is typical nonsense I see on Chinese bbs from time to time. I will say this now. There is really no reason to get Euro engines. The Europeans have no produced anything that could be used in J-10. They simply don't produce large fighter jet engine. Even if WS-10A is not as advanced as EJ-200 or M88-3, it still produces more thrust because of it's larger size. It would take time for the Europeans to develop and test a new large size engine. By which time, WS-10A would already be mature for PLAAF and upgraded variants would also be in use. Also, JF-17 is developed specifically for RD-93 sized engine, so anything else would not fit that well for it. You can put M88 in there, but it doesn't provide additional thrust and you have to address the issue of reduced weight (which would result in additional flight testing because you would have a change in center of balance). It simply doesn't make sense.

    And on top of that, the Europeans are not going to allow China to license produce any advanced engines. And China wants to go alone, it doesn't want to license produce anymore. It wants to be able to go through the entire development process. At best, it would cooperate with Europeans in new turbofan engine development like the one for Z-15 (WZ-16) and also with MTU for C-919. In both cases, it learns from Europeans on how to develop new engine.
     
  7. taimikhan
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    taimikhan New Member

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    Chinese turbo fan engine is a must, a do or die situation as PLAAF future would depend on it and i believe China will not leave any stone unturned to get this capability.

    Recent seeing of WS-10 engines on a J-11 means, something is going on and the engine is making up to the requirements.

    And as for JF-17, well the good thing about it is that it has a modular structure, meaning it airframe has not been kept dependent on a specific engine or avionics suit or radar.

    For JF-17, the same technique has been used as done in the AK tank.

    AK is having Western FCS and thermal sights, as well as can accommodate Chinese FCS & sights. Similarly, it can have a Chinese engine installed, a German engine can work and Ukrainian engine works too, without inviting any redesign process in it. HIT made sure that extra space is available if anyone wants a different sized engine if ordered.

    Similarly, for JF-17, it has extra space in it, if a western more powerful & slightly bigger engine is to be placed in it. Not of the bigger or in the WS-10 class, but in the class of RD-93, F-404 or 414 type and French ones being used on Mirage 2Ks.

    So yeah, if a change of engine is required, JF-17 can have a western engine without calling for any change in its design or other things.
     
  8. tphuang
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    tphuang Brigadier
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    What is this obsession with JF-17 using western engines? There are very few engines outside of RD-93 that can generate comparable thrust and can fit into JF-17. They are basically EJ200, F414 and M88-2. One, they are definitely not going to be offered to China for license production due to the various embargoes. Two, they are unlikely to be offered to fit onto for other nations, because export clearance level of the countries that China will likely be selling JF-17s to. Third, they offer minimal thrust improvement to RD-93 while costing a whole lot more. Fourth, much additional testing will be needed to accommodate the smaller replacement engine which would cause a change in aerodynamics of the plane.
     
  9. lilzz
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    lilzz Banned Idiot

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    Oh well, China got the license production of the spey engine for the JH-7A from RR before the embargo.

    At least WS10A got mentioned once a while,but the WS13 suuposedly fit into th FC-1 fell off the map completely, no one is mentioning that anymore.Maybe it's already dead.

    Does Arms Embargo also preventing consultation service? if its OK China should pay some money for consultation to solve the problem.
     
  10. lilzz
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    lilzz Banned Idiot

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    From PAK point of view, it should NOT depend on Russian 's RD-93 for its main fighters FC-1. Russia is too close to India and it could one day end supply of that to PAK. The dependence is a major stratgic vulnerability for PAK.

    Pak should put some pressure on China, saying RD-93 is not a long term acceptable solution for PAK. CHina should find an altrenative choice ASAP and don't relax now because Putin has agreed to allow RD-93 for now.

    Or bettre idea, buy the WS-13 core tech from CHina, so PAK can work on that simultaneously. WHo knows PAK might able to find the solution faster with some consultation help from EU. Work on Parallel, don't ovre dependending on CHina completely.
     
    #10 lilzz, Mar 6, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
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