Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Discussion in 'World Armed Forces' started by bd popeye, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. Air Force Brat
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    Air Force Brat Brigadier

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    I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the Indian Air Force had seen or sat in an F-35 cockpit, I'm not aware of that happening? India, like Turkey is running Russian Air Defense Systems, so NO, they won't be getting the F-35 either?? they have been offered production of up-graded F-16s, which unlike the F-35 are not the latest "bleeding edge technology", but would be highly capable against their own "near peers"...

    India has not to date built and fielded a "high end Fighter aircraft", while they seem to do fine on the low end, producing the F-16's in country would be a first step to "move up", and might well be followed by "high end production"??

    I'm going to remind that tensions in Asia are extremely high, with contests for territory (China's Island building for instance), and power, you might not have another opportunity to build anything if you allow a near peer to take advantage of your relative weakness in the near term??

    I see some of our friends squabbling over petty krap, and causing tensions on our own small team?? I just want to say, "get your head out of your ass"! there are those in the region who are attempting to buy friends, and throwing cash around? this is the most dangerous time in Asia since Vietnam, people better take a close look at who their friends are, and who would like to run the show??

    some will of course point to the US, fair enough, but there are greater dangers lurking, here again this is my opinion, and I'm not an expert, but I am paying attention!
     
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  2. Zool
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    Zool Junior Member

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    I largely agree with this and have touched on some of the missteps leading to failure so I won't go into those again. But I agree.

    This is the crux of the problem; Tejas could be building in numbers at present at a reasonable cost, but is not due to ever changing requirements from the IAF that ask for cutting edge systems (Israeli AESA etc since India's indigenous UTTAM AESA project remains in development), in the first build of the aircraft they would be willing to accept.

    Asking for the moon from the get go when the immediate need is to replace legacy aircraft with a moderate capability improvement, in numbers, with growth potential.

    I find studying military development in China and India is fascinating. And it's much easier to do a deep dive on Indian data since all government and military releases are in English. But it really is like watching a train wreak..
     
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  3. Zool
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    Zool Junior Member

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    I've already posted on this pretty thoroughly. You don't have an aerospace industry until you start one. India began in the 60s, dropped the ball, restarted in the 80s to present with the Tejas program among others (LCH rotary as an example).

    China built an aircraft industry on Russian engines.. Canada did for a time as well using British engines. This to say that there is nothing strange or impossible for India to do the same. From the perspective of technology base, India and China were at par up to the 80s, perhaps early to mid 90s. And India today does not have the restrictions on commercial dual-use technologies and knowledge sharing that was placed on China.

    As for the rest, I've harped on India enough in the context of their failures with getting an indigenous solution up and flying. There are problems for sure, and Brumby and I have brought those up already. No need to beat a dead horse.
     
  4. Zool
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    Zool Junior Member

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    Well agree to disagree I suppose. I do not suggest that India shouldn't import aircraft mind you, but that they should effectively replace a large portion of their airforce with a local solution, all things considered.

    It was always in my mind but I didn't want to particularly 'go there', but here goes: India is a nuclear power. With its primary rivals within range of its current delivery system technology. They have an adequate conventional armed forces to supplement that deterrence. They have the time.
     
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  5. Brumby
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    Brumby Major

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    I don't typically follow Indian military developments and in particular the Teja program. However I did conduct some research on it in addressing your comments.

    There is no dispute that the Teja program has been painfully slow in comparison to other similar programs. For example from inception to first delivery the Teja took 33 years. In contrast it was 15 years for the F-CK-1; 9 years for the T-50 and 8 tears for the JF-17. That said, 16 Teja Mk1 had been delivered to date and the initial 40 orders are is expected to be fulfilled officially by 2020. Modern fighters by nature are difficulty to implement because of avionics and systems rather than aerodynamics and in the case of the Teja Mk 1 it is probably a combination of being too ambitious and unrealistic. The initial specs issued in 1997 was for an internal SPJ system but this requirement was removed in 2009 as there was just insufficient internal space for it. Integration of the indigenous radar and the SPJ has proven to be much more difficult than initially appreciated. I made the same point in the JF-17 thread where I caution that attempts to integrate a Chinese AESA radar to a Turkish jammer will not be easy. I think this is generally not appreciated by the public but it is one of the most difficult development in modern systems. We know of the Indian problems because the programs are more transparent. The Chinese are much more opaque and even if there are problems resulting in down specs we will never know. What we do know is that the timeline on the JF-17 Block 3 has been frequently pushed back

    As a result of integration and weight issues, the Indians with the Mk1A will go for the Israeli EL/M-2052 AESA radar and the EL/L-8222 SPJ which is expected to present lesser integration issues. Coming back to the Mk1, if the Indians did go for the externally mounted SPJ pod, it will have channelized receiver and the ability to simultaneously jam 5 different threats at the same time. In other words, even if the program is running late it is getting very advance systems to go with it. The Mk 2 will be a completely different design meant to replace the Mirage 2000; Mig-29's and Jaquars. This path is however far from certain as it is still subject to deliberations.
     
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  6. Zool
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    Zool Junior Member

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    The timing of this is actually pretty funny, considering I was just mentioning the lack of this position in a larger post to Air Force Brat about the status of Indian forces. IMO probably the first good decision I've seen made related to defense by the current Indian PM.

     
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  7. Brumby
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    Brumby Major

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    Indian Air Force Sukhoi Su-30 crashes in Assam

    https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...i-su-30-crash-assam-tezpur-1578876-2019-08-08
     
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  8. maint1234
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    maint1234 New Member
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    Well put. You have covered everything pretty well.
    I will only say that building a modern fighter jet with all Indigenous systems is very difficult, with only a handful of countries like USA, France, EU and maybe Russia capable. Russia I say maybe because their aircrafts seem to always come off second best in all encounters, in the last 30 years. I used to put it down to inferior pilots flying Russian planes but the russian plane getting shot out of the sky, with Russian pilots in Turkey was eye-opening. Now the electronic warfare system is most important in fighters and Russians seem to lag in this.
    Issue with India is we have a lot of the above mentioned Russian planes - su30 mkis - of the late 90s vintage and mirage 2000 of the 80s but after every aerial conflict, the old mirage seems to come off better. To be fair the mkis have not seen serious combat but the procurement of the Rafaels and more planes, does not speak very highly of the 250 odd mkis we have.
    And we can bet our bottom dollar that the new planes procured won't be Russian built.
    In modern combat the price or origin of the plane becomes immaterial and the only thing that survives is the capability of the plane.
    I don't see Indian made planes reaching the capability of even f16 ver 70 in the next 10 years, wrt its radar, engine or electronics. And in the meantime, China our real threat - if we believe its advance in stealth planes-- would be much ahead.
    So buy the latest planes from the west for the next 10 years but keep making incremental advances in avionics in the private sector, not public.
     
  9. Skywatcher
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    Skywatcher Senior Member

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    Honestly, I don't know why they don't just call the Tejas Mk2 what it is, a new aircraft.

    I reminds me of the ZTZ-99A: which has a completely different powerplant, chassis (the roadwheel arrangement and glacis plate are different), different turret. The only things it has in common with the ZTZ-99 are the autoloader and machine guns (I think).
     
  10. Brumby
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    Brumby Major

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    Mk2 designation is probably misleading as it will be a MWF design unlike Mk1 which is LCA. The Teja brand itself is likely bad optics because of the long development timeline.

    The piece I cannot get my hands around is the development time gap between Mk1 and Mk1A which the latter is not expected to have its first flight until 2022. The main upgrade to my knowledge is the AESA radar and the LRUs reconfiguration to bring down the weight. If this is a realistic timeline for an AESA upgrade then I would question the timeline on the JH-17 Block 3 which is essentially also an AESA upgrade. The PAF to my knowledge has not made a final decision on the radar but yet it is rumored to fly by end of 2019.

    In comparison, it took 18 months to upgrade the ROCAF's first F-16 to the V standard and considering the APG-83 is a matured product on an existing airframe. There are things just not adding up.
     
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