PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

LawLeadsToPeace

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there are such cases, but they are not common, more of exceptional skill of the smaller army's commander or the stupidity of the large army's commander or lack of will to fight.


These numbers are hugely exaggerated by history book writters almost always. In 1st and 2nd example, 200,000 and 600,000 soldiers in a single battle is neither economically nor logistically possible in thosed days, NOT even possible in 1940s when PLA fought GMT in all their major campains.

A good example of these kind of exageration of historical story is "Qin Zhao Changping campain". There is a study by PLA academian on the subject. The paper refuted the the notion of "Qin killing 400,000 POW after one battle" by analynizing the size of the populations of the two kingdoms, their logistic capability (6 to 9 men transporting food to support 1 fighting soldier), the conclusion was that at no time in the campain there was 400,000 soldiers from either side, nor was the mountainious terrian allowed such large army.
I'm just going to debate on this just out of curiosity. Lets start with the 6 to 9 support personal for one soldier ratio, isn't that a modern era phenomenon? For instance, the Iraq War era US military's combat soldier is supported by 8.1 support personal while a WW1 US soldier is supported by 2.6 personal. However, during the US Civil War, if I remember correctly, a single blacksmith can support up to 30 plus soldiers. I can imagine that the ratio/ tooth to tail is even more lopsided in favor of combat personal during the ancient times. Plus the conscripts were just minimially trained peasants who just lived off the land, and their mass destruction can explain why the Zhao never recovered and basically became a zombie state after that defeat.
I also wonder where did Xiang Yu get 35000 good horses since his army is primarily from southern China where there was no horse breeding place. Remember 35000 is a huge number, even for the northern dynasties such as Han who had dedicated horse breeding ground in north-western China, Xiangyu never had access to those places. You can check cavary size of any campain of Western Han against Xiongnu.
One can suggest that such horses did exist but most were subsequently wiped out during the Chu-Han contention. That is why the Western Han needed to explore for horses.
A recent example was Qing against Dzungar Khanate, the largest size of Qing army was 50,000, more than half of this was infantry (muskteers and artilleries), the other half (less than 25,000) was cavalries, among them, large number was Kalkha Mongoles and surrended Dzungar Mongoles. So Qing's cavalry from "China proper + Mantruria" was less than 20,000. Qing controls much larger land than Xiang Yu.
Note that such a time gap is huge and numerous wars occurred. You would have to factor in a time gap between the Chu-Han contention and the Qing, which is almost 2000 years.
 
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Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I think currently China is mostly doing the right thing, besides possibly boosting defense spending more.

KMT will never beat government forces in a 1 on 1, there's nothing US can give that would help it even slightly. Arming the local collaborators, as shown in Ukraine, will not produce dependable soldiers. And that is against a 3rd tier force and not a world class one.

So that means war over Taiwan will always come from American invasion, never an unilateral resumption of the civil war. China's job then is to wait and prepare for the US offensive, so they can smash the regular forces (US military), the moment that happens. The collaborators would only put up token resistence when the regular foreign soldiers backing the attack are all dead.

Sending 1 himars or a few thousand guns into stockpiles is not something that should reactively trigger an impulsive counteroffensive. Instead, China needs to wait for the big US offensive and then go all out to kneecap it.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm just going to debate on this just out of curiosity. Lets start with the 6 to 9 support personal for one soldier ratio, isn't that a modern era phenomenon? For instance, the Iraq War era US military's combat soldier is supported by 8.1 support personal while a WW1 US soldier is supported by 2.6 personal. However, during the US Civil War, if I remember correctly, a single blacksmith can support up to 30 plus soldiers. I can imagine that the ratio/ tooth to tail is even more lopsided in favor of combat personal during the ancient times. Plus the conscripts were just minimially trained peasants who just lived off the land, and their mass destruction can explain why the Zhao never recovered and basically became a zombie state after that defeat.
In your counting of morden wars, you did not count the menhours building those weapons and farmers who produced food for the soldiers in the years of the war, did you? If you count them in and compare with the past, you would get that the ratio in acient time is higher. The whole war is a systematic machine that every bolts and nuts have to be counted to enable the war.

The difference between acient time and today is the efficiency (due to technology advance) of material production and transportation. To illustrate, in acient time, a farmer can only produce surplus for 3 men (blacksmith to make weapon and 2 soliders to fight). A morden American farmer can feed a lot more people in the city, I read somewhere 8 people. Transporting food to the battle field need one man and many horses 10 days during which most of the food were eaten by the transporting man and his horses. Only about 1/3 is left for soldiers. In morden time a truck in a single day can do the job of 10 horses in 10 days. The logistic cost is the gas which is also produced in high efficiency. These non-combat logistic cost is much higher in portion in the past.

One trick that historian used to exagerate the war-god like Xiangyu is to count only the soldier in the battle field, but counting all transporters and drafted civilian with a stick from the opposing side. In reality the number of real regular soldiers on both sides aren't as different as the story said. For example, the PLA paper gave the true number being a fraction of the quoated number from Shiji, I believe the PLA paper is closer to the reality.

One can suggest that such horses did exist but most were subsequently wiped out during the Chu-Han contention. That is why the Western Han needed to explore for horses.
Horses live and die. Western Han greatly increased population, so were the horse population. I don't think Chu-Han contention period is misteriously more able to breed more horses, especially when it followed the Qin's short time of "peace" after the unification to recover from the warring state' hundreds years of war which would have already "wiped out" horses.

Note that such a time gap is huge and numerous wars occurred. You would have to factor in a time gap between the Chu-Han contention and the Qing, which is almost 2000 years.
The climate and size of grazing land did not change much during that 2000 years in northern China, Mongolia and Manchuria, nor was there any more advanced breeding method. So I don't see a reason of the time gap making a difference.

A good example is the crop production rate (per unit area) did not change much over thousands of years. The only change happened when new tools were introduced, namely from stone/wood to metal tools or new crop breed. Between such change, nothing changes.

Another example is China's population, before Song dynasty China's population was 60 million at its peak, this number reached about 150 million in Song dynasty due to the development of algricuture land in southern China. It remained so mid Qing then jumped to 400 million due to the introduction of corn from America. The increases only happened when new land (Song and Qing) and/or method/tech (corn) were introduced. These factors did not happen to horse breeding though.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Just curious, approx how many % of Taiwanese population is semi amenable to unification with the mainland vs how mary who are hard core against?
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
Just curious, approx how many % of Taiwanese population is semi amenable to unification with the mainland vs how mary who are hard core against?
What's more important than ratios is what Taiwan's population is like. Hong Kong had no pro-Beijing people until riots beyond a handful of socialists.
Taiwan's integration will be easier than Hong Kong's. There is no dialect barrier and no ~150 years of colonial influence. There are still some old people who identify as Chinese (I mean of the same nationality as the mainlanders). There won't be joint declarations that prevent China from implementing economic measures that appease the middle class. These were not true with Hong Kong. Some hardcore DPP fans exist, but similar types of people existed in Hong Kong too.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Guys, Taiwan is being armed to the teeth, Washington will not stop until Taiwan is fully armed to cause unacceptable destruction to Chinese infrastructure, and perhaps even coordinate with India to intervene in Tibet in the event of hostilities in the Taiwan strait.

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Perhaps its a good move to liberate Taiwan ASAP before more US arms arrive in Taiwan and make the situation more difficult.
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This isn't a threat, more like a gift lmao. A few ATGMs from CH-2 drones would take them all out in a row.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Just curious, approx how many % of Taiwanese population is semi amenable to unification with the mainland vs how mary who are hard core against?
The vast majority don't want the civil war to go hot again, regardless of which side starts it.

Migrant working and moving to other provinces is really common.

I think the breakdown would be 80% status quo, 15% pro-government, 5% anti-government. But the anti-government are ostentibly in control of the whole operation, because they started out as the leading core, and they can fairly easily draw from the 80% if the conditions are right.

Overall, the situation is a bit better for China than it is for Ukraine with the Donbass, mainly because there are no "native American speakers" in Taiwan, nor did China earn a poor reputation by shelling civilians.
 

sr338

New Member
Registered Member
I think currently China is mostly doing the right thing, besides possibly boosting defense spending more.

KMT will never beat government forces in a 1 on 1, there's nothing US can give that would help it even slightly. Arming the local collaborators, as shown in Ukraine, will not produce dependable soldiers. And that is against a 3rd tier force and not a world class one.

So that means war over Taiwan will always come from American invasion, never an unilateral resumption of the civil war. China's job then is to wait and prepare for the US offensive, so they can smash the regular forces (US military), the moment that happens. The collaborators would only put up token resistence when the regular foreign soldiers backing the attack are all dead.

Sending 1 himars or a few thousand guns into stockpiles is not something that should reactively trigger an impulsive counteroffensive. Instead, China needs to wait for the big US offensive and then go all out to kneecap it.
I'm of the camps that an invasion of Taiwan is only worth it if the USA get dragged into.

-If you just invade Taiwan, you get a small island and a tons of Sanctions.
-If the US get dragged into it and get defeated, USA will be out of Asia, US will lose it's status as Superpower.

If you check the number of 055/052D vs 071 being build. The PLAN is clearly made to fight the USN
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm of the camps that an invasion of Taiwan is only worth it if the USA get dragged into.

-If you just invade Taiwan, you get a small island and a tons of Sanctions.
-If the US get dragged into it and get defeated, USA will be out of Asia, US will lose it's status as Superpower.

If you check the number of 055/052D vs 071 being build. The PLAN is clearly made to fight the USN
China is getting tons of sanctions anyway. That's not a deterrent

China could probably recover Taiwan today and defeat any US attempts to stop that, but China isn't strong enough to push them out of Japan and Korea etc. So a small war only gets you Taiwan and far more American troops in Asia. Superpowers can lose a battle and adapt to get stronger. The US didn't stop being a superpower after the withdrawal from Vietnam or Afghanistan either

If China has to win a major Pacific war, more preparation is needed. Maybe in the late 2030s
 
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