Chinese Economics Thread

[Blitzo]

Firstly, as a Mod, you and tphuang have the right to request an end of any off topic discussion. I am perfectly willing to comply as long as you guys say so.

Note that over the last few posts none of us have used blue or red text, thus we were not speaking as moderators but as equivalent members.

Secondly, tphuang said that China should invest in other countries and move low end manufacturing to other countries including India. I respectfully disagree. I have given my reasons why such suggestions are a bad idea especially for India. I don't know why you think pointing out India as not an ideal place for investment equals to grievances. I respectfully disagree with your accusation.

I don't have a problem for tphuang to point out to other member that that member is off topic and shouldn't bring India into the discussion. However, it doesn't mean I have to agree with tphuang's second part of post that suggesting moving low end manufacturing to other countries is a good idea.

You are using tphuang's first part of his post to justify his second part of his post which is not fair or reasonable.

I come here to discuss and engage in discussion. As a Mod, you can ask me to be respectful to other members or any countries. It is also reasonable to request members not engaging in off topic discussion. And I certainly agree that it is unfair to bring India into discussion that have nothing or little to do with India.

However, it is unreasonable to request me to conform to your beliefs. This forum has standards but it can't expect members to accept your imposed values and thinking. You can only request members to debate in a civilized, respectful, and not off topic manner. No more or no less.

Therefore, my reply against tphuang for his thinking that moving low end manufacturing to other countries including India is not off topic or disrespectful. In addition, my view that India is not a good place to do business is reasonable assessment. And my view that India has failed to fulfill its potential is not wrong and shouldn't be considered a way to degrading India. You can't expect me not to express my views in discussion as long as it is in civilized, respectful, not off topic manner..

It is an expectation for members to remain on topic, and that is something we can expect as members of the forum as well.

Your discussion with tphuang over the last two pages is essentially revolving around two topics:
a) the request by him asking other members to stop picking on India (or indeed, complaining about "Indians" as in Indian people as you've done in the last few replies which borders on racism), in threads where it is irrelevant to India
b) a debate about the pros and cons of offshoring low end jobs elsewhere

If you want to debate b), then that is fine, and I have no issue with that part of your discussion in the last few posts.


However, bringing up a) in threads that are entirely unrelated to them is not encouraged and is getting tiresome, and is indeed off topic, and both he and I as normal members are asking others to take a step back and stop being so chauvinistic.
It is not unreasonable to expect that from you.

Take a look back at the last few posts you guys have been involved in, and recognize the parts that are unacceptable, and just stop.

 

[TK3600]

I think the hostility toward invest in India should not be regarded as a racism from us. I have no problem with Indian people. It is the Indian government that is the issue. Chinese are not blind, they know India has a lot of potential. However Indian government is particularly hostile to foriegn investment, and not just toward China but toward everyone, Russians and other westerners too. This is not simply "blah blah India hates Chinese waaah grievance", they are hostile to all!

Furthermore Tphuang has not addressed the point raised by other members like failure of Huawei and Xiaomi getting harassed by Indian government and seized. I think it is fair that he gets some push back for grieving others not accept his opinion while not properly defending his opinion.

 

[Overbom]

Furthermore Tphuang has not addressed the point raised by other members like failure of Huawei and Xiaomi getting harassed by Indian government and seized

Not only these 2 companies, there is also ZTE, Oppo and Vivo Mobile.

And they are trying to pull up a fast one on the Chinese mobile industry

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India Seeks to Oust China Firms From Sub-$150 Phone Market​

• Xiaomi, Realme and Transsion will be among those affected
• Delhi has launched several investigations into Chinese firms

India seeks to restrict Chinese smartphone makers from selling devices cheaper than 12,000 rupees ($150) to kickstart its faltering domestic industry, dealing a blow to brands including Xiaomi Corp.

The move is aimed at pushing Chinese giants out of the lower segment of the world’s second-biggest mobile market, according to people familiar with the matter. It coincides with mounting concern about high-volume brands like Realme and Transsion undercutting local manufacturers, they said, asking not to be

China should move 0 industries to India until it starts playing by the rules of the game that the rest of the world abides with

 

[coolgod]

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India stole almost 2 Billion USD from Chinese private companies in the last year alone, this is excluding the shady business payment practices they also do with Chinese state owned companies. This issue clearly affects Chinese economics and cannot be discounted away as "Racism" or "Chauvinism".

The biggest problem about India with regards to Chinese economics isn't that they steal money from Chinese companies, or ban Chinese private companies e.g., Tiktok and 400+ other apps. It is their crab mentality foreign policies which stop China's global economic development by dragging down other countries with them.

Can't afford to build infrastructure for neighbouring countries? Claim China uses debt trap diplomacy or building secret military base to dissuade other countries from economic development with China. If that doesn't work, India then signs infrastructure deals with neighbouring countries but never delivers see Iran and Sri Lanka.

 

[TK3600]

I think that is a sufficient response toward @tphuang . This is a forum, and forum is all about dialogue. No point beating the dead horse if he do not respond. I keep my mind open in case he makes a solid argument why China should invest heavily into India despite these concerns.

 

[ansy1968]

In case anyone is offended, I am talking about the Indian government and political class not the common Indian people

Sadly bro it permeates in their society, IF you don't cheat /weasel your way out to prosperity then you don't make it. With huge population with entrench oligarchy, social mobility is questionably hard as in impossible. Either do it or migrate abroad.

 

[Blitzo]

I think the hostility toward invest in India should not be regarded as a racism from us. I have no problem with Indian people. It is the Indian government that is the issue. Chinese are not blind, they know India has a lot of potential. However Indian government is particularly hostile to foriegn investment, and not just toward China but toward everyone, Russians and other westerners too. This is not simply "blah blah India hates Chinese waaah grievance", they are hostile to all!

Furthermore Tphuang has not addressed the point raised by other members like failure of Huawei and Xiaomi getting harassed by Indian government and seized. I think it is fair that he gets some push back for grieving others not accept his opinion while not properly defending his opinion.

Again, I have no issue with talking about pros and cons about actual relevant economics related discussion whether it be pros/cons of offshoring low end manufacturing, or wise investment strategies.

However when I see things like this:
"out of topic, but the arrival of automated manufacturing seem to spell certain uncertainty to the development of India.."

or this
"Why not, anyone who has done business with Indians knew that they are difficult to do business with."

or this
"If you ever have dealt with Indians, then you probably should know that Indians are the most difficult people to do business with."

or this:
"Why do you assume I have grievances with Indians. I have many Indian friends during college. However, from my business experience with Indians, Indians don't tend to keep their promises. I have dealt with Arabs and Pakistani and many different ethnicity but only Indians would agree with a deal then break it and then agree with it again and break it again."

or this
"This is funny as I was going to comment on the same experience. Experience tells me to generally not trust them with anything of significance."


.... those parts of the discussion in what may be an otherwise constructive post, are off topic at best (in the first post I quoted), or chauvinistic bordering on racist at worst (the others).


All of which goes back to the statement of tphuang which I unreservedly support and which the above quotes are examples of:
"why are people so insistence on putting down India on this forum?"

 

[56860]

The biggest problem about India with regards to Chinese economics isn't that they steal money from Chinese companies, or ban Chinese private companies e.g., Tiktok and 400+ other apps. It is their crab mentality foreign policies which stop China's global economic development by dragging down other countries with them.

Can't afford to build infrastructure for neighbouring countries? Claim China uses debt trap diplomacy or building secret military base to dissuade other countries from economic development with China. If that doesn't work, India then signs infrastructure deals with neighbouring countries but never delivers see Iran and Sri Lanka.

China = win-win cooperation.

India = lose-lose cooperation. As long as you lose, I'm happy. My loss can even be larger than yours. It's ok. I am willing to stab myself, so long as it means I can hurt you too. A true crabs in the bucket mentality.

 

[TK3600]

Again, I have no issue with talking about pros and cons about actual relevant economics related discussion whether it be pros/cons of offshoring low end manufacturing, or wise investment strategies.

However when I see things like this:
"out of topic, but the arrival of automated manufacturing seem to spell certain uncertainty to the development of India.."

or this
"Why not, anyone who has done business with Indians knew that they are difficult to do business with."

or this
"If you ever have dealt with Indians, then you probably should know that Indians are the most difficult people to do business with."

or this:
"Why do you assume I have grievances with Indians. I have many Indian friends during college. However, from my business experience with Indians, Indians don't tend to keep their promises. I have dealt with Arabs and Pakistani and many different ethnicity but only Indians would agree with a deal then break it and then agree with it again and break it again."

or this
"This is funny as I was going to comment on the same experience. Experience tells me to generally not trust them with anything of significance."


.... those parts of the discussion in what may be an otherwise constructive post, are off topic at best (in the first post I quoted), or chauvinistic bordering on racist at worst (the others).


All of which goes back to the statement of tphuang which I unreservedly support and which the above quotes are examples of:
"why are people so insistence on putting down India on this forum?"

I actually agree. We should not look down on Indians, but focus on India as a country. India has well deserved infamy when it comes to foriegn investment. Based on numerous failure provided by members here I conclude India as a country deserve zero investment from China.

The country is not viable for investment, but we should not mock the people.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I actually agree. We should not look down on Indians, but focus on India as a country. India has well deserved infamy when it comes to foriegn investment. Based on numerous failure provided by members here I conclude India as a country deserve zero investment from China.

The country is not viable for investment, but we should not mock the people.

objective fact: foreign companies are fleeing India. US companies have the most experience in foreign investment yet Ford and GM quit India after decades of losses. GM quit India's market entirely - it doesn't even sell cars there anymore.

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Ford said Thursday that it had considered several options, but concluded that it had “not been able to find a sustainable path forward to long-term profitability that includes in-country vehicle manufacturing.” The company accumulated losses of more than $2 billion over the past 10 years and demand for new vehicles had been weak.

Ford entered India in 1995 in partnership with the Mumbai-headquartered Mahindra & Mahindra, which was then largely a manufacturer of tractors and utility vehicles. It constructed a greenfield plant near Chennai from where it launched a mid-size, entry-level sedan named Ikon as its first product for the Indian market. The partnership with Mahindra ended after a few years, only for the two to partner up again in 2017. Even this did not last long and towards the end of 2020, the partnership was called off.

General Motors stopped selling cars in India at the end of 2017, after two decades of operating in the country. It sold one of its plants to long-time partner, China’s SAIC Motor Corp, and was in talks to sell the second plant to Great Wall Motors of China, a plan that had to be put on hold because of the Covid-19 pandemic and also due to the border standoff between India and China.

Chinese companies should think carefully about even selling products there and the reputational risks that come from being associated with India. GM decided that even the reputational risk and cost of maintaining a sales network was too high for the small Indian market.