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Tse

Tse

Junior Member
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MarKoz81 said:
Oh dear... this again?


1. Accession to NATO of Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania

The right of those nations to join NATO was settled on 21 November of 1990.

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[page 2]

Meeting of the Heads of State or Government of the participating States of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe (CSCE):
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Cyprus, Czech and Slovak Federal Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Holy See, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy -European Community, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, United Kingdom, United States of America and Yugoslavia

Paris, 19 - 21 November 1990

[page 6]

Security

Friendly relations among us will benefit from the consolidation of democracy and improved security. We welcome the signature of the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe by twenty-two participating States, which will lead to lower levels of armed forces. We endorse the adoption of a substantial new set of Confidence- and Security-building Measures which will lead to increased transparency and confidence among all participating States. These are important steps towards enhanced stability and security in Europe. The unprecedented reduction in armed forces resulting from the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, together with new approaches to security and co operation within the CSCE process, will lead to a new perception of security in Europe and a new dimension in our relations. In this context we fully recognize the freedom of States to choose their own security arrangements.

The actual document carries Mikhail Gorbachev's signature is under "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" thus guaranteeing the right of Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland and Romania to accede to NATO without seeking USSR's or Russia's approval.

They chose to do so because they were occupied by the Soviet Union following WW2 with communist governments imposed through political terror backed by Soviet occupying forces. That occupation was followed by internal repression and forcible russification of countries which - with the exception of Bulgaria - are traditionally part of the Latin civilization. Any attempt of those countries to restructure their internal political systems was violently repressed e.g. in Hungary in 1956, in Czechoslovakia in 1968, in Poland in 1956, 1970 and 1980.

Rejection of Soviet rule, withdrawal from COMECON and Warsaw Pact and joining the EU and NATO was approved by majorities of over 75% in each of the countries.


2. Dissolution of the Warsaw Pact.

The Warsaw Pact was not dissolved by Gorbachev and could not be dissolved as such as it was nominally a collective organization of sovereign states. With the Soviet Union losing influence in its former satellite states following political revolutions in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania. Only in Bulgaria the transition occurred peacefully with the Communist Party of Bulgaria changing its name to Socialist Party of Bulgaria and winning the first free election in 1990. East Germany was automatically withdrawn from Warsaw Pact under the Reunification Treaty (Two Plus Four).

The Warsaw Pact was dissolved in February of 1991 when Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania declared their intentions to unilaterally withdraw from the Pact following the Paris agreement in November of 1990 cited above. Bulgaria assented to the dissolution and the Soviet Union was left as the sole member of an organisation that was expelled from Warsaw. It was therefore not the USSR dissolving the Warsaw Pact but the occupied Soviet satellites withdrawing.



3. Accession to NATO of Albania and Yugoslavia.

Albania and Yugoslavia were neither members of the Warsaw Pact nor formally allied to the Soviet Union. It was a separate socialist country and a member of the Non-Aligned Movement. Their right to join the NATO was a sovereign decision of a sovereign country. Yugoslavia - an in consequence constituent states of the federal republic - was signatory to the Paris charter cited above.

This settles the right of Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, (North) Macedonia and Slovenia to join NATO without any legal obligation to seek permission from the Soviet Union or Russia.

In particular the geographical position of Yugoslavia which is located on the Adriatic shore, next to Italy and Austria precludes any reasonable claim by Russia of "endangering its security" considering that it is separated from Russia by sovereign countries which chose to distance itself from Russia.

Russia's claim is based on their relationship with Serbia which sought Russia's support after it lost control of the Federal Republic following Josip Tito's death and the rejection of Serbian nationalist policy within multi-ethnic Yugoslavia led by Milosevic which led to its violent dissolution.



4. Accession to NATO of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

This is the only controversial act which however is legal on the basis of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia being sovereign states created in 1918-1920 period and subsequently formally recognized by the Soviet government which in 1939 were invaded, put under occupation and later forcibly annexed into the USSR and had their population resettled and their land colonised by Soviet invaders.

Their separation from USSR was legitimate and legal under the rules instituted by Gorbachev's reforms in 1991, on the secession from the USSR which precludes any claim by Russia on their sovereign security arrangements.



5. Allowing the accession to NATO of Georgia and Ukraine.

It never happened. It is a Russian lie.

In 2008 during the Bucharest summit of NATO the departing US president George W Bush has submitted a proposal to grant Ukraine and Georgia a joint Membership Action Plan which would move the countries from cooperation under Partnership for Peace to formal negotiations on membership at an unspecified date.

The proposal was not accepted by NATO during the summit. Instead a follow-up negotiation on its potential resolution after the US election was agreed but that negotiation never came into effect due to the economic crisis and later the change of government in both countries.

It was not resumed until Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022.



6. Paranoid delusions and obsessive attention-seeking are a symptom of a mental disorder.

There is no known healthy pattern of behaviour which involves any of those separately, but combined they indicate a very serious condition.
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Here is the Feb 9, 1990

Memorandum of conversation between Mikhail Gorbachev and James Baker in Moscow​

from the U.S. Department of State, FOIA 199504567 (National Security Archive Flashpoints Collection, Box 38)

Baker tells Gorbachev: “The President and I have made clear that we seek no unilateral advantage in this process” of inevitable German unification. Baker goes on to say, “We understand the need for assurances to the countries in the East. If we maintain a presence in a Germany that is a part of NATO, there would be no extension of NATO’s jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east.”

What's up with all these Natoids coming around the forum lately? Never seen a group of people so proud to be living as protectorates
 

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Deleted member 23272

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Chevalier said:
Australia: Gotta ban Chinese TikTok cuz of the spying!!

Also Australia: Let’s use Israeli spyware to check to see if welfare recipients are in relationships so we don’t have to pay them!!

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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1643227782304899073

Thought about the whole Finland joining NATO thing today, have ruminated some more items of interest:

1) The US will install THAAD in Finland along with IRBMs
2) Russia will respond either by militarising the border, dedicating More military units to steamroll Finland and potentially Sweden and the Baltics when the ballon goes up.
3) Russia may well decide to go back to Cuba as a 1960s redux
4) Finland will become poorer, dedicating so much of the budget into NATO and losing the Russian and Chinese market will weaken Finnish firms, making them easier to be swallowed up by Anglo companies.
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Surprised people are being so nonchalant about Finland joining NATO. Just an observation that if China made a geopolitical move that was so egregious that it forced non-aligned, to even borderline friendly countries like Indonesia and Malaysia, to rush to the US, Japan, and Aus for security guarantees, (I don't count Philippines since Duterte was the exception rather than the rule) there would be no talk about how its these country's losses that they've antagonized China and are now in its crosshairs. There'd instead be numerous threads dedicated to how much the CPC sucks at PR and diplomacy, and that its time for new blood to run China's foreign policy.

Finland joining NATO from a geopolitical perspective is a loss for Russia and a logical security move for the Finns. You may disagree, but its just interesting so many on here are willing to spin Finland ascension to the alliance as an "elaborate Russian trap" to ruin the country and bolster its own geopolitical standing in the Baltics, when China would never get the luxury of bullish assessments.
 
Temstar

Temstar

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“Today, the world is on the eve of a new international order that has been in the making following the era of a global bipolar order and the theory of a unipolar world order, during which America has been becoming weaker day by day,” Khamenei said.
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The meeting in Beijing is just beginning and they're already shit talking US.
 
Breadbox

Breadbox

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coolgod said:
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View attachment 110541
Ursula von der Leyen in Beijing today? Who's that?
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1643844463385559040
The US will cry about how Iran-Saudi normalization was a joint effort which included the west also :cool:
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Cue some retarded anglo mumbling about how the middle east would be even worse without them to "keep the peace", it is beyond a shadow of a doubt the Anglos are responsible for almost every dispute, disagreement spiraling into perpetual open violence even when assuming they didn't cause the dispute in the first place. 3 seconds after the lameduck Anglo in chief signals his intention to reduce engagement, even the greatest of enemies wants de-escalation and peace.

South east asia is currently the only consistently stable and growing region in recent times precisely because of the near complete lack of Anglo engagement with the area, make no mistake, the Philippines is most economical stagnant and self-hating of all SEA countries for a reason. All of that is probably going to change.
 
P

pmc

Colonel
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Witchhunter12 said:
Surprised people are being so nonchalant about Finland joining NATO. Just an observation that if China made a geopolitical move that was so egregious that it forced non-aligned, to even borderline friendly countries like Indonesia and Malaysia, to rush to the US, Japan, and Aus for security guarantees, (I don't count Philippines since Duterte was the exception rather than the rule) there would be no talk about how its these country's losses that they've antagonized China and are now in its crosshairs. There'd instead be numerous threads dedicated to how much the CPC sucks at PR and diplomacy, and that its time for new blood to run China's foreign policy.

Finland joining NATO from a geopolitical perspective is a loss for Russia and a logical security move for the Finns. You may disagree, but its just interesting so many on here are willing to spin Finland ascension to the alliance as an "elaborate Russian trap" to ruin the country and bolster its own geopolitical standing in the Baltics, when China would never get the luxury of bullish assessments.
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Indonesia and Malaysia demographics are not the same as Finland. Finland further economic decline will accelerate its demographic collapse. why do you think Eastern EU lost so much in past 30 years despite peak prosperity of Western EU and budget transfers?.
for same reason you dont compare Germany with Japan. Japan is military power and each product that comes out of Japan is Made in Japan to great extent. while products Made in Germany has not only Euro content but environmental degradation of the continent. Just look at Germany infrastructure with Japan and dysfunctional demographic mix that is created in Europa.
 
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