054/A FFG Thread II

[AndrewS]

A future FFG will be a blue water FFG that will fill in the escort role in blue water environment at far away waters like Indian Ocean and so it needs to be capable of long-to-mid range AAW as well as ASW. This means it needs to be larger, closer to 052D size.

I actually see a future FFG as being tailored for blue-water operations with Carrier Strike Groups in the Western Pacific around the 2nd Island Chain.

That is what I see the key mission as, and the current Type-054A propulsion setup looks too slow to keep with a Carrier

Remember Chinese ports and naval bases will likely be attacked, so where are those ships going to/from the Indian Ocean going to dock?

This means the follower up for the 052D will be a mid-size DDG--bigger than 052D but smaller than 055. 055 will be the capital ship, escorting and leading carriers, amphibious, and surface action fleet. While 05X DDG acts as the main workhorse, a role currently being filled by 052D.

This my vision of what I think PLAN is going for, but as always I could be wrong.

Yes, I think they will go with a larger mid-size DDG to replace the Type-052D for blue-water operations with Carriers

But if you want to discuss further, there's other threads

 

[Gloire_bb]

Even rear areas will be attacked.

HHQ-10, countermeasures, ASROC/torpedoes, and a couple of light ASCMs is enough for a useful deterrence at the rear areas - unless the convoy is valuable enough, of course.
Medium-range SAM complex is needed when either you're providing defense for a task force (that's a combat role) or you intend to interfere with the launch of stand-in (and shorter range stand-off) munitions - i.e. contend against a dedicated attack.
That is actually quite a lot.

And once a submarine is vaguely detected, you need a helicopter or ASW aircraft to effectively localise the contact

Rear/coastal areas typically assume being in the range of coastal aviation. Furthermore, unless weather is particularly against it - light ASW helicopter can be just stowed on the pad.

 

[Lethe]

Rear/coastal areas typically assume being in the range of coastal aviation. Furthermore, unless weather is particularly against it - light ASW helicopter can be just stowed on the pad.

With limited support personnel and limited fuel, lubricants, spare parts and munitions, this is a marginal capability indeed. Of course it is hypothetically possible that a ship without a hangar could be well provisioned to operate rotorcraft in every other respect, but as a practical matter it is very unlikely. If you are going to all that trouble you would fit a hangar as well.

 

[AndrewS]

HHQ-10, countermeasures, ASROC/torpedoes, and a couple of light ASCMs is enough for a useful deterrence at the rear areas - unless the convoy is valuable enough, of course.
Medium-range SAM complex is needed when either you're providing defense for a task force (that's a combat role) or you intend to interfere with the launch of stand-in (and shorter range stand-off) munitions - i.e. contend against a dedicated attack.
That is actually quite a lot.

HHQ-10 is only point air-defence, and won't defend other ships if there is a convoy

Medium-range SAM defence on a Type-054A isn't actually expensive
Call it $75M (which is 21% of the overall cost estimate of $348M), as per the Diplomat estimate below

$40M - 32 VLS cells
$15M - Type 382 3D search radar
$20M - ZKJ-4B/6 Combat Data System

You've got many civilian cargo ships or military ships which cost much more than $75M.

Rear/coastal areas typically assume being in the range of coastal aviation. Furthermore, unless weather is particularly against it - light ASW helicopter can be just stowed on the pad.

Coastal aviation is preferred, but local helicopters are very useful as well

 

[Gloire_bb]

HHQ-10 is only point air-defence, and won't defend other ships if there is a convoy

Come closer to your protege then . You can't provide medium-range SAM to every single banana carrier - and coastal/routine convoys, as well as maritime militia ops in wartime also need protection. Y
US authors already stated the intention to engage China-bound commercial vessels(as well as go mine warfare route), and it can't be ignored.

Medium-range SAM defence on a Type-054A isn't actually expensive
Call it $75M (which is 21% of the overall cost estimate of $348M), as per the Diplomat estimate below

$40M - 32 VLS cells
$15M - Type 382 3D search radar
$20M - ZKJ-4B/6 Combat Data System

You've got many civilian cargo ships or military ships which cost much more than $75M.

Not too much, but they're also needed at higher threat scenarios.
Furthermore - requirements to this class of SAM rise steadily - and with active seekers, INS/Baidu, 2-way datalinks and probably more energy-rich engines - the next gen of those missiles won't really be cheap.

Coastal aviation is preferred, but local helicopters are very useful as well

But they can be just as local! Area units can use 056a as a forward pad, it's fully capable of such use. All of current Chinese coastal geography also allows such usage.
Hangar is a storage facility (for ships this small, not even servicing - space is just too tight), needed primarily when we're at sea for far enough and long enough. Yes, it gives a good option to keep helicopter on yourself during storms - but it probably won't help you in case of sub contact regardless - taking it out of the hangar, fuelling and arming is a time hole.

If anything can be made to take off faster (to scare sub away at least) - it's a drone, and 056a has drone hangar.

 

[Tam]

I wonder what is the cost of 052X type hull without the massive air defense radars. IMO, you can recycle the existing hull into a frigate. This takes the position that we no longer class Destroyer vs. Frigate by size and displacement, but rather by role, like the RN does, and also something the other RN (Russian Navy) is increasingly leaning towards to. That is Destroyer for AAW and Frigate for ASW.

Recycling or reusing an existing and proven hull would greatly save development costs, continue to rely on existing machinery, presses, and trained labor to build them.

I assume that a big amount of the 052C/D comes from the radars and its supporting equipment. What if we take those out of the equaltion, and use the 054A equipment instead. This is a return to the 052B but with significant changes, that its more like a 052B refit.

The basic fit would be:

Type 382 radar or its successor (AESA radar taking the same role)
Type 364 radar or its successor
HHQ-16 target illuminators (assuming we still use HHQ-16; since we already have AESA successors to the Front Domes we will go with those.)
Use AJK-16 VLS or U-VLS. The latter retains the same layout we see on the 052D. The changes are that HHQ-16 and YU-8 are adapted to U-VLS using new canister systems. This allows the ship to use ASROCs and quad pack SAMs that are compatible with the 052D/055.
Type 1130 at the front.
HHQ-10 at the rear.
Same proven drive train, you know what I mean.
Helo deck extended like "052DL" for larger ASW helicopters.
Same bow sonar, TAS and VDS.
Same EW and decoy launcher suite as 052D.
YJ-12 or YJ-83 for antiship missiles. It won't be hard to change the canisters and their stands. YJ-12 gives a strong focused role for antishipo warfare, but YJ-83 stands gives the flexibility of the dual targeting YJ-83 variant and the option for YU-11 ASROC.

We will refer to the 052X ASW as a frigate, while 052D+ AAW as destroyer, and both manufactured in parallel. With so many shared parts between the two ships, we can amortize the costs even further.

This is only my brain idea.

 

[plawolf]

People talk of using 056s and 054a for convoy protection, but just where would these convoys run to and from exactly?!

Other than anti-piracy ops, I don’t think convoy protection has ever been a role the PLAN has planned or needed to perform, and is most certainly not one it would tailor its ship procurement and development for.

The originally non-ASW 056s were for coastal patrol and policing duties, which seem to have now transferred to the Chinese Coast Guard (in terms of role and ships).

The 056As the PLAN are keeping are almost all ASW variants, and will be used as such for primary fleet protection within the first and second island chains, which is realistically as far as the PLAN is expecting to go toe to toe against a peer or even superior opponent.

Having the 056As in the formation would free up the 054As so they can better perform their picketing duties in terms of both AAW and ASW by staying in formation, while the 056As can extend the ASW screen out much further (which is critically important in passive ASW, as it allows the outriders to get away from the noise of the main fleet so their passive sonar has a better chance of picking up enemy subs) and also act as the hounds to chase down enemy subs as needed without potentially creating gaps in the fleet formation as could happen if you need to send 054As out to do that.

This way you can maintain a super secure, overlapping and multi-redundancy air defence screen around your fleet core assets while also having maximum ASW screens. Without the 056As, it will be a choice between the two unless you want to double or even triple the 054A escort numbers.

 

[Gloire_bb]

This is only my brain idea.

Blue water CODOG frigate of sorts?
IMHO, to make it worth the effort, it should actually bring in things 052/055 families lack. Building 054a in a larger hull may not be a good option - neither 054a nor 052d are exactly new, nor is 052d hull new. Furthermore - not that many larger frigates are necessary in the first place, I believe.
(originally there was a list of things to add, but that's basically a 054B, so may as well skip it).

People talk of using 056s and 054a for convoy protection, but just where would these convoys run to and from exactly?!

Point A to point B along thousands of miles of Chinese coast, including SCS islands(and potentially - Taiwan). Escorting ships in and from the bases. Escorting MCM vessels in their jobs. And all other endless tasks, which need a navy ship - just any ship, but a ship.
Whole enormous Chinese EZ is 056A area of responsibility.

The 056As the PLAN are keeping are almost all ASW variants, and will be used as such for primary fleet protection within the first and second island chains, which is realistically as far as the PLAN is expecting to go toe to toe against a peer or even superior opponent.

1300t, 25kn diesel ships (3'500 nmi@16kn) range?
Better not, unless the navy is seriously desperate.

 

[AndrewS]

People talk of using 056s and 054a for convoy protection, but just where would these convoys run to and from exactly?!

Other than anti-piracy ops, I don’t think convoy protection has ever been a role the PLAN has planned or needed to perform, and is most certainly not one it would tailor its ship procurement and development for.

The originally non-ASW 056s were for coastal patrol and policing duties, which seem to have now transferred to the Chinese Coast Guard (in terms of role and ships).

The 056As the PLAN are keeping are almost all ASW variants, and will be used as such for primary fleet protection within the first and second island chains, which is realistically as far as the PLAN is expecting to go toe to toe against a peer or even superior opponent.

Having the 056As in the formation would free up the 054As so they can better perform their picketing duties in terms of both AAW and ASW by staying in formation, while the 056As can extend the ASW screen out much further (which is critically important in passive ASW, as it allows the outriders to get away from the noise of the main fleet so their passive sonar has a better chance of picking up enemy subs) and also act as the hounds to chase down enemy subs as needed without potentially creating gaps in the fleet formation as could happen if you need to send 054As out to do that.

This way you can maintain a super secure, overlapping and multi-redundancy air defence screen around your fleet core assets while also having maximum ASW screens. Without the 056As, it will be a choice between the two unless you want to double or even triple the 054A escort numbers.

When I talk about convoy protection, I'm mainly referring to the following

1. Commercial shipping (hundreds) running from China to ASEAN ports, and possibly beyond
2. Military shipping to the bases in the South China Seas
3. Escorting the hundreds of ships involved in a Taiwan invasion scenario

I agree that the Type-056, Type-056A and Type-054As are all useful

 

[AndrewS]

I wonder what is the cost of 052X type hull without the massive air defense radars. IMO, you can recycle the existing hull into a frigate. This takes the position that we no longer class Destroyer vs. Frigate by size and displacement, but rather by role, like the RN does, and also something the other RN (Russian Navy) is increasingly leaning towards to. That is Destroyer for AAW and Frigate for ASW.

Recycling or reusing an existing and proven hull would greatly save development costs, continue to rely on existing machinery, presses, and trained labor to build them.

I assume that a big amount of the 052C/D comes from the radars and its supporting equipment. What if we take those out of the equaltion, and use the 054A equipment instead. This is a return to the 052B but with significant changes, that its more like a 052B refit.

The basic fit would be:

Type 382 radar or its successor (AESA radar taking the same role)
Type 364 radar or its successor
HHQ-16 target illuminators (assuming we still use HHQ-16; since we already have AESA successors to the Front Domes we will go with those.)
Use AJK-16 VLS or U-VLS. The latter retains the same layout we see on the 052D. The changes are that HHQ-16 and YU-8 are adapted to U-VLS using new canister systems. This allows the ship to use ASROCs and quad pack SAMs that are compatible with the 052D/055.
Type 1130 at the front.
HHQ-10 at the rear.
Same proven drive train, you know what I mean.
Helo deck extended like "052DL" for larger ASW helicopters.
Same bow sonar, TAS and VDS.
Same EW and decoy launcher suite as 052D.
YJ-12 or YJ-83 for antiship missiles. It won't be hard to change the canisters and their stands. YJ-12 gives a strong focused role for antishipo warfare, but YJ-83 stands gives the flexibility of the dual targeting YJ-83 variant and the option for YU-11 ASROC.

We will refer to the 052X ASW as a frigate, while 052D+ AAW as destroyer, and both manufactured in parallel. With so many shared parts between the two ships, we can amortize the costs even further.

This is only my brain idea.

Basically you're describing something similar to the Spruance ASW destroyers.
But like the Spruance, the basic 052 hull is oversized for solely the ASW role
You've got spare space with the VLS cells, which could be filled with Antiship or Land-attack missiles

Otherwise you might as well go with a smaller hull size closer to the Type-054A