H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

styx

Junior Member
Registered Member
the primary mission for the b-2 was flying over soviet territory hunting mobile icbm.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
You talked about 30% bigger than a J11... I was responding about that figure. Remember that Tu-22 cannot even carry one long range missile internally but can still manage to carry shorter range Kh-15S in a rotary launcher. You need a way bigger plane than 30% more than a j-11 or you need a lot of them to do saturation. Would you risk launching small missiles while within the kill zone of a carrier group with your top of the line bomber or you would prefer to shot bigger ones at a safer zone of 800 km or 1000km? I would say that a H-6k lobbing missiles at 1000km have probably more chance of surviving than a stealth bomber at 200km...
I used a real figure: 30% longer than a J-11 would accommodate at least a 8 m weapons bay which I'd assume can fit some 6 m class missiles like a YJ-12.

But if the launcher mechanism takes more space then a Kh-15 class missile (1000 kg, 4 m length) may be more appropriate as a fit.

Kh-15 has a 300 km range, but it doesn't have to. A missile like JASSM-ER fits the same category (1000 kg, 4 m length) but has a range of 1000 km.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
For land targets, look at the cost difference between the different JASSMs, which we can use as representative of powered standoff missile costs

JASSM
400km range: $0.5M
900km range: $1.0M
1900km range: $1.5M

If you look at the geography of the 1st Island Chain, a 900km range sino-JASSM launched from a truck can reach all the land targets that a JH-XX could reach. Plus the missiles can receive their own fighter escort like a JH-XX strike package would

And a JH-XX some 30% larger than a J-11 is going to cost like $150M. So a JH-XX is going to have to launch like 300 missiles before it works out cheaper than launching JASSM missiles from trucks. That's over 35 missions for a JH-XX to fly without being shot down.

I also think a 400-500km missile range is just too close to the AWACs and fighter defences. It risks having the launch platform shot down. Plus the incoming missiles can also be tracked and shot down.

Hence for land-attack, trucks launching powered missiles looks like a better option than a brand new JH-XX design

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So I see China going ahead with GJ-11s and H-20s.

They are more relevant and versatile because they have broadband stealth which allows them to penetrate deep and launch stealthy glide missiles (100km range) like the JSOW ($0.3M) or SDB ($40K).

At the same time, GJ-11s and H-20 can still launch powered missiles if required, and credibly launch these within 400km of a target
A truck cannot provide it's own sensor platform so you have to add the cost of the sensor along with it. In addition those are the ranges and costs of air launched missiles. A ground launched missile has to add the cost of the booster. Finally, the truck isn't free, I don't have hard numbers on me right now but a TEL is typically 500k-1 mil USD.

Also, a JASSM class missile (4 m length) can easily fit inside a 8 m internal bay.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
A truck cannot provide it's own sensor platform so you have to add the cost of the sensor along with it. In addition those are the ranges and costs of air launched missiles. A ground launched missile has to add the cost of the booster. Finally, the truck isn't free, I don't have hard numbers on me right now but a TEL is typically 500k-1 mil USD.

Also, a JASSM class missile (4 m length) can easily fit inside a 8 m internal bay.

If a JH-XX is launching missiles from 400km away, you have to have offboard sensors anyway

The cost of ground boosters and TELs doesn't change the basic calculation
Plus remember that TELs are a lot cheaper to maintain than an airplane
 

Atomicfrog

Captain
Registered Member
For land targets, look at the cost difference between the different JASSMs, which we can use as representative of powered standoff missile costs

JASSM
400km range: $0.5M
900km range: $1.0M
1900km range: $1.5M

If you look at the geography of the 1st Island Chain, a 900km range sino-JASSM launched from a truck can reach all the land targets that a JH-XX could reach. Plus the missiles can receive their own fighter escort like a JH-XX strike package would

And a JH-XX some 30% larger than a J-11 is going to cost like $150M. So a JH-XX is going to have to launch like 300 missiles before it works out cheaper than launching JASSM missiles from trucks. That's over 35 missions for a JH-XX to fly without being shot down.

I also think a 400-500km missile range is just too close to the AWACs and fighter defences. It risks having the launch platform shot down. Plus the incoming missiles can also be tracked and shot down.

Hence for land-attack, trucks launching powered missiles looks like a better option than a brand new JH-XX design

---

So I see China going ahead with GJ-11s and H-20s.

They are more relevant and versatile because they have broadband stealth which allows them to penetrate deep and launch stealthy glide missiles (100km range) like the JSOW ($0.3M) or SDB ($40K).

At the same time, GJ-11s and H-20 can still launch powered missiles if required, and credibly launch these within 400km of a target
Yep I also don't see a JH-XX that useful... H-20 could reach where land based missile or a medium bomber cannot and be survivable and undetected before unloading a long range payload.

I don't think a range of 100km is survivable in a high threat environment even with broadband stealth. Stealth help, but remember that a 1960 era SA-3 downed a F-117... I would not bet my top of the line aircraft into range of a modern sam system.
 

PUFF_DRAGON

New Member
Registered Member
The JH-11 is intrinsically useful because unlike subsonic platforms like the GJ-11 and H-20 it is super sonic allowing for easier hit and run attacks and evasion of enemy missiles. Supersonic flight regimes also allow squadrons to disperse over larger areas but still be able to vector in to assist other allied forces. It is a huge deal to have super sonic flight and super cruise capabilities. I don't know why people are denying basic Newtonian physics here.

Yep I also don't see a JH-XX that useful... H-20 could reach where land based missile or a medium bomber cannot and be survivable and undetected before unloading a long range payload.

I don't think a range of 100km is survivable in a high threat environment even with broadband stealth. Stealth help, but remember that a 1960 era SA-3 downed a F-117... I would not bet my top of the line aircraft into range of a modern sam system.

The Serbian SA-3s had been modernized and the USAF got cocky and was flying the exact same bombing routes repeatedly.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The JH-11 is intrinsically useful because unlike subsonic platforms like the GJ-11 and H-20 it is super sonic allowing for easier hit and run attacks and evasion of enemy missiles. Supersonic flight regimes also allow squadrons to disperse over larger areas but still be able to vector in to assist other allied forces. It is a huge deal to have super sonic flight and super cruise capabilities. I don't know why people are denying basic Newtonian physics here.

Again, look at the geography of the 1st Island Chain

Can you actually provide a plausible example of where a JH-11/XX can conduct a hit and run attack better than a land-based truck with stand off missiles?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Again, look at the geography of the 1st Island Chain

Can you actually provide a plausible example of where a JH-11/XX can conduct a hit and run attack better than a land-based truck with stand off missiles?

Indeed, but the raison d'etre for a JH-XX would be to conduct strikes at distances within the second island chain as a regional bomber, not only within the first island chain, which as you describe, can be conducted by a number of other assets.

If you want to hit a target (especially a moving maritime one) 2000-2500km away, relatively reliably, with somewhat time sensitivity, a stealthy, supersonic regional bomber is your best bet.
 
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