China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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Suetham

Senior Member
Registered Member
China ASBM surveillance is robust and use multiple sensor and it has been demonstrated successfully with last year test. It does not need 365 day 24X7surveillant All it need is to detect where is the CBG know their approximate location and get update send it to the missile and the system on board will take care. Since it is ocean there is no place to hide. Completely different thing from estimating number of warhead base on park component in factory parking lot! With too many assumption and guess work

An ASBM system that can intervene at a distance of 1,500 km from the target - more precisely a carrier strike group (CSG), in order for it to function effectively, it must have a dedicated ISTAR platform (intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance) that can penetrate the defensive bubble of a CSG so that the kill chain can work and make the missile do its job.

The only way this will not happen is if there was a remote ISTAR platform, with thousands of km of range, but I will tell you ahead: OTH radar does not work for this; reconnaissance satellites (ELINT, radar and photographic) also do not work for this. These platforms do the job to the point of tracking the CSG, but are not accurate enough to designate the target for the kill chain to work.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
An ASBM system that can intervene at a distance of 1,500 km from the target - more precisely a carrier strike group (CSG), in order for it to function effectively, it must have a dedicated ISTAR platform (intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance) that can penetrate the defensive bubble of a CSG so that the kill chain can work and make the missile do its job.

The only way this will not happen is if there was a remote ISTAR platform, with thousands of km of range, but I will tell you ahead: OTH radar does not work for this; reconnaissance satellites (ELINT, radar and photographic) also do not work for this. These platforms do the job to the point of tracking the CSG, but are not accurate enough to designate the target for the kill chain to work.
How they actually do it is a mystery but they do give a hint in the last test where the ISTAR is separated before missile reentry into the atmosphere and guided the missile to its target
I am not so sure that you cannot track from space because Jilin 1 was show to track the flight of airplane taking off
Here tracking missile launch

Here tracking plane take off real time. I mean it only take 3 to 4 minute from the time missile renter atmospher e to target
 
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escobar

Brigadier
No DoD report is based on open source material which is normally generated by organization like FAS who has agenda to drive which is nuclear disarmament and China is their poster boy because China never disclose their nuclear stockpile so they can generate all kind of BS like saying China has only 300 warhead for DECADES.

imagine we know Chinese conventional forces goes by leap and bound and China defense budget balloon from low 20 billion to 200 billion dollar now And yet china nuclear stockpile stay at 300 for 30 years Does not make sense since the all the war monger threatening China with nuclear annihilation .
When we know there is no constraint whatsoever for China to increase their stockpile be it material, finance or technology Or motivation

They do have intelligence report for for internal consumption only and not for public

All those number that they they throw in is only gross and unreliable estimate
We already know CN is increasing its nuclear warfighting capacity. They are developing strategic early warning system from satellites to long range ballistic missile warning radars on the ground; MIRV ICBM & SLBM and ALBM being tested and even a TACAMO plane to provide survivable communications links in a nuclear warfare. The question is how many warhead are deployed now. For that we can look at PLA nuclear 'posture': They rely on camouflage, deception, caves, and ambiguous numbers to seek survivability which means the deployed nukes still low compared to US/Russia.
 

Suetham

Senior Member
Registered Member
How they actually do it is a mystery but they do give a hint in the last test where the ISTAR is separated before missile reentry into the atmosphere and guided the missile to its target
I am not so sure that you cannot track from space because Jilin 1 was show to track the flight of airplane taking off
Here tracking missile launch

Here tracking plane take off real time. I mean it only take 3 to 4 minute from the time missile renter atmospher e to target
So for you everything that exists regarding ASuW operations is outdated? Does everything work out with satellites and anti-ship ballistic missiles thousands of kilometers away?


Patrol planes, AEW planes, patrol drones, ships with anti-ship missiles, submarines with anti-ship missiles ... everything is obsolete. Technology has reached a point where satellites see everything, know everything and just push a button somewhere in China and ballistic missiles with 1500, 2500, 3500, 5000, 10000 km range.

The problem would not even be tracking aircraft carriers in the port, but for those on patrol. The periodicity of a satellite's overflight is a problem and if the NAe is at high speed, it may be well out of the range of the tracking satellite.

Even with a constellation of satellites, you lose sight of it until the next satellite arrives, which can take hours (the specifications get a little complex). At that time, it could be somewhere completely different. Remember that nuclear aircraft carriers can travel at a high speed, above 30 knots. Within an hour, they are many miles from where you last saw them.

To put it in perspective, satellite tracking is not in real time, but in lagged tracking. Real-time tracking comes from reconnaissance aircraft, surface vessels, drones, submarines and a network of maritime surveillance sensors.

This update cannot be from the launcher since by the curvature of the Earth it is not in direct line with the target OTH, which implies that this update would have to start from a platform that is in the direct line of sight of the target (in this case, a USN CSG). This platform needs to be in direct line with the target and connected directly to the “missile” (more precisely, to MaRV). The fact is that this platform would have to remain "on station" until MaRV is able to assume and acquire the target on its own. And this in an extremely challenging environment that is within the defensive bubble of a CSG that has at least 5 to 6 destroyers and Aegis cruisers, plus the aircraft carrier itself, plus some 70 to 80 aircraft, including fighters equipped with AESA radars and missiles. long-range air-to-air, AEW aircraft also equipped with long-range AESA radars and some aircraft specializing in electronic warfare (EA-18G) that can act defensively, circulating the CSG and interfering with enemy communications, including satellite communications.

As a hypothetical example, the attack on a CSG by the DF-21D could be something like this:
1- ELINT reconnaissance satellites locate a threatening CSG and send this data to the command center;
2- a long-range stealth drone equipped with radar is sent to search the determined area, staying about 200 km from the target and confirms the “threat” and validates the targets;
3- 2 or 3 ASBM DF-21D are launched against targets;
4- the drone recognizes when the re-entry vehicles enter the network and connects to them, sending updates on the position of the targets;
5- when already in the atmosphere, the maneuverable reentry vehicles move their fins and take the updated course differently from the initial ballistic one, better positioned to find the targets;
6- at about 50 km from the targets, the MaRV performs a pop-up braking maneuver to allow the radar to be used;
7- in a distance of about 40 km (more or less) the MaRVs' radar is activated and begins to scan the area and acquires the target (in this case, the aircraft carrier) about 10 km from it, with 10 seconds remaining for the impact.

The problem with this concept is that it would hypothetically have no countermeasures, where it would not work in the real world, especially against powerful opponents.

For example, the speed of ballistic missiles, seen as the differential of the ASBM system, is also the Achilles heel of the whole concept, in view of the fragility of the seeker to ECMs. The immense speed reduces the time for defense but it also reduces the processing time of the guide head and this makes it more vulnerable to the immense greater processing and power generation capacity of a CSG.

The complexity of the system is also a weakness since it depends on an RF-based data interconnection that in theory can be blocked, interfering in the “kill chain” from the beginning.

There is a perception that this whole highly complex system can be neutralized with countermeasures as simple as a smoke cloud of carbon filaments, or false targets or even the good old chaff.

And that citing only the soft kill defenses. Regarding active defenses, the DF-21D is already outdated, mainly in view of the effective possibility of interception via SM-6 already demonstrated.

In other words, either the Chinese immediately try to use their “advantage” in the area denial / anti-access issue or the wheel of time will spin and put the invested billions on the ground.

Chinese A2 / AD capability is based on an easily understood concept, which is to be able to reach an aircraft carrier at distances that the aircraft carrier's aviation cannot attack.

As a rule, an aircraft carrier must always stay out of the reach of enemy defense and from this protective distance dispatch its planes to attack. This distance is generally assumed to be 200 NM.

The Chinese's solution to the problem was “brilliant”: they developed an anti-ship missile with a range of 1500 km (the DF-21D), well beyond the range of aircraft carrier fighters. This creates a situation of denial of area (AD) to the aircraft carrier that would have to be vulnerable to be able to operate since the on-board aviation does not have a range of 1500 km, so it brings down the first premise in the use of aircraft carriers that face is to attack without being able to be attacked. Either that, or it becomes useless, and here comes the A2 (anti-access) capability. The aircraft carrier will have to think long before it can reach enemy missiles.

Everything would be simple if we were to do bakery. The DF-21D has a range of 1500 to 2000 km, American naval fighters have a range of a maximum of 1100 km (with refueling it would reach close to 1500 km). Ready!

It's just that it doesn't work exactly that simplistic way. The DF-21D missile may be invulnerable, out of the reach of aircraft carrier fighters, but they are only part of the system and the means necessary for it to work must invariably invade the defensive bubble raised by the CSG (more than 500 km in radius, being able to reach 1000 km) and this due to an indisputable fact, the Earth is not flat.

Why do these means invade the defensive bubble and do not operate from outside it, say 1500 or 2000 km? Because there are limitations regarding the sensors and the altitude that the aircraft fly.

What about satellites? Satellites are not an effective means of targeting. They are extremely useful to find a CSG in the middle of the oceans and even "suggest" where a CSG might be but as a rule they are not able to follow it, track it, in real time, for obvious reasons (they revolve around the Earth immense speed).

But what about a constellation of satellites where there is always one in direct line with the target?

This architecture is the one that the Russians try to look for, but it is very complicated to put into practice, not to mention that it is highly vulnerable to electronic warfare.

But what about OTH radars? They lack the necessary precision to operate in combination with hypersonic missiles that require an extremely refined shooting solution.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
So for you everything that exists regarding ASuW operations is outdated? Does everything work out with satellites and anti-ship ballistic missiles thousands of kilometers away?


Patrol planes, AEW planes, patrol drones, ships with anti-ship missiles, submarines with anti-ship missiles ... everything is obsolete. Technology has reached a point where satellites see everything, know everything and just push a button somewhere in China and ballistic missiles with 1500, 2500, 3500, 5000, 10000 km range.

The problem would not even be tracking aircraft carriers in the port, but for those on patrol. The periodicity of a satellite's overflight is a problem and if the NAe is at high speed, it may be well out of the range of the tracking satellite.

Even with a constellation of satellites, you lose sight of it until the next satellite arrives, which can take hours (the specifications get a little complex). At that time, it could be somewhere completely different. Remember that nuclear aircraft carriers can travel at a high speed, above 30 knots. Within an hour, they are many miles from where you last saw them.

To put it in perspective, satellite tracking is not in real time, but in lagged tracking. Real-time tracking comes from reconnaissance aircraft, surface vessels, drones, submarines and a network of maritime surveillance sensors.

This update cannot be from the launcher since by the curvature of the Earth it is not in direct line with the target OTH, which implies that this update would have to start from a platform that is in the direct line of sight of the target (in this case, a USN CSG). This platform needs to be in direct line with the target and connected directly to the “missile” (more precisely, to MaRV). The fact is that this platform would have to remain "on station" until MaRV is able to assume and acquire the target on its own. And this in an extremely challenging environment that is within the defensive bubble of a CSG that has at least 5 to 6 destroyers and Aegis cruisers, plus the aircraft carrier itself, plus some 70 to 80 aircraft, including fighters equipped with AESA radars and missiles. long-range air-to-air, AEW aircraft also equipped with long-range AESA radars and some aircraft specializing in electronic warfare (EA-18G) that can act defensively, circulating the CSG and interfering with enemy communications, including satellite communications.

As a hypothetical example, the attack on a CSG by the DF-21D could be something like this:
1- ELINT reconnaissance satellites locate a threatening CSG and send this data to the command center;
2- a long-range stealth drone equipped with radar is sent to search the determined area, staying about 200 km from the target and confirms the “threat” and validates the targets;
3- 2 or 3 ASBM DF-21D are launched against targets;
4- the drone recognizes when the re-entry vehicles enter the network and connects to them, sending updates on the position of the targets;
5- when already in the atmosphere, the maneuverable reentry vehicles move their fins and take the updated course differently from the initial ballistic one, better positioned to find the targets;
6- at about 50 km from the targets, the MaRV performs a pop-up braking maneuver to allow the radar to be used;
7- in a distance of about 40 km (more or less) the MaRVs' radar is activated and begins to scan the area and acquires the target (in this case, the aircraft carrier) about 10 km from it, with 10 seconds remaining for the impact.

The problem with this concept is that it would hypothetically have no countermeasures, where it would not work in the real world, especially against powerful opponents.

For example, the speed of ballistic missiles, seen as the differential of the ASBM system, is also the Achilles heel of the whole concept, in view of the fragility of the seeker to ECMs. The immense speed reduces the time for defense but it also reduces the processing time of the guide head and this makes it more vulnerable to the immense greater processing and power generation capacity of a CSG.

The complexity of the system is also a weakness since it depends on an RF-based data interconnection that in theory can be blocked, interfering in the “kill chain” from the beginning.

There is a perception that this whole highly complex system can be neutralized with countermeasures as simple as a smoke cloud of carbon filaments, or false targets or even the good old chaff.

And that citing only the soft kill defenses. Regarding active defenses, the DF-21D is already outdated, mainly in view of the effective possibility of interception via SM-6 already demonstrated.

In other words, either the Chinese immediately try to use their “advantage” in the area denial / anti-access issue or the wheel of time will spin and put the invested billions on the ground.

Chinese A2 / AD capability is based on an easily understood concept, which is to be able to reach an aircraft carrier at distances that the aircraft carrier's aviation cannot attack.

As a rule, an aircraft carrier must always stay out of the reach of enemy defense and from this protective distance dispatch its planes to attack. This distance is generally assumed to be 200 NM.

The Chinese's solution to the problem was “brilliant”: they developed an anti-ship missile with a range of 1500 km (the DF-21D), well beyond the range of aircraft carrier fighters. This creates a situation of denial of area (AD) to the aircraft carrier that would have to be vulnerable to be able to operate since the on-board aviation does not have a range of 1500 km, so it brings down the first premise in the use of aircraft carriers that face is to attack without being able to be attacked. Either that, or it becomes useless, and here comes the A2 (anti-access) capability. The aircraft carrier will have to think long before it can reach enemy missiles.

Everything would be simple if we were to do bakery. The DF-21D has a range of 1500 to 2000 km, American naval fighters have a range of a maximum of 1100 km (with refueling it would reach close to 1500 km). Ready!

It's just that it doesn't work exactly that simplistic way. The DF-21D missile may be invulnerable, out of the reach of aircraft carrier fighters, but they are only part of the system and the means necessary for it to work must invariably invade the defensive bubble raised by the CSG (more than 500 km in radius, being able to reach 1000 km) and this due to an indisputable fact, the Earth is not flat.

Why do these means invade the defensive bubble and do not operate from outside it, say 1500 or 2000 km? Because there are limitations regarding the sensors and the altitude that the aircraft fly.

What about satellites? Satellites are not an effective means of targeting. They are extremely useful to find a CSG in the middle of the oceans and even "suggest" where a CSG might be but as a rule they are not able to follow it, track it, in real time, for obvious reasons (they revolve around the Earth immense speed).

But what about a constellation of satellites where there is always one in direct line with the target?

This architecture is the one that the Russians try to look for, but it is very complicated to put into practice, not to mention that it is highly vulnerable to electronic warfare.

But what about OTH radars? They lack the necessary precision to operate in combination with hypersonic missiles that require an extremely refined shooting solution.
Gee you wrote a long reply again based on your prejudice that it does not work and vulnerable to counter measure. The Chinese won't deploy the system if it so easy to fool But the fact that they declare it operational in 2011 show they have confidence of the robustness of the system. I show you that it is possible to track airplane take off from space let alone slow 30 mile /hr carrier. All you do is tracking for half an hour which is is the time from launch to target for typical missile . The indian did some simulation couple years back based on the known constellation of Chinese satellite and they come to the conclusion yes they could track a CBG. go back hundred of pages in this thread and you will find I am tired of keeping repeating ad hominem. We don't know how the system work until such time which we hope never come from now on just sit tight and pray!

You can deny all you want but the video that I show you satellite did track moving object for 5 or 6 minute and this is low grade civilian satellite imagine what a high grade military satellite can do. there is such thing as inter relay satellite that coordinate the passing satellite and sending command for the incoming satellite to focus on certain area Read this
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It has been 60 years since the Russian try and a lot of thing happened in those intervening 60 years technology speed up at warp speed
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General

The position of the satellite is well known all you need is laser ranger to bounce from ship surface to locate the ship

Blanket

Speaking of coverage, let's take a look at what the constellation can do. Given its inclination, it is optimized to observe the environment close to China, in particular the approaches to its Pacific coast. Taipei, the capital of Taiwan, is therefore a very representative area of interest, especially since the recent rearmament efforts of the Republic of China with the United States have heightened tensions in the region.

Based on the 3D models of the satellites that Chinese TV broadcast, they don't appear to carry any radar or imaging system, so they are probably used for electronic intelligence, possibly with a communications function as well. These types of sensors generally need to see their target at an angle of incidence of at least 5 °. Based on this assumption, we can calculate Taipei's coverage over a 24-hour period:

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In cyan, the periods of coverage.


We see that the coverage is almost constant, with the longest interruption lasting around 30 minutes, and most interruptions lasting 10 minutes every half hour. The following video shows satellite position and coverage opportunities (in the form of a purple link between the satellite and the ground):



However, if we assume that the satellites carry an imaging payload, then the constraints on the angle of incidence are greater, which reduces the coverage. By taking 30 ° as the minimum angle of incidence, it then beco
mes:

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In cyan, the periods of coverage.


The result is much more sparse, which is all in all logical because each satellite must be much higher above the horizon to take an image. However, there is still a very high revisit rate with imaging opportunities every 30 minutes. This allows almost permanent cover, and would give China the ability to track the mobile military assets of its adversaries such as missile batteries or ships.




Plans for the future​

This revisit rate is already the highest among all known constellations in China or elsewhere, but the middle country does not intend to stop there, as academician Li Deren explains in a
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“The first step is to provide local (local) coverage from the South China Sea to the North China region . This requires around 20 remote sensing satellites and 1 to 3 communication satellites in geostationary orbit to achieve a time resolution of 15 minutes. High-resolution target images and sub-meter navigation and positioning accuracy are sent to users' mobile phones and other smart terminals;

The second step is regional coverage of China and neighboring countries along the Belt and Road. This requires a hundred remote sensing satellites. Among them, half of the remote sensing satellites are optical satellites and the other half are radar satellites to ensure the broadcasting of images day and night, plus 150 communication satellites;

The third stage is global . To achieve a worldwide service, it is estimated that 200 remote sensing and 300 communication satellites will be required. The service index is the time resolution of 5 minutes, that is, the required image target is found within 5 minutes, the resolution and navigation accuracy reach 0.5m, and the time In-orbit processing and communication time is less than 1 minute before being delivered to the user's mobile phone. "


Yaogan-30 is the first step, with 21 satellites optimized for the Chinese coastline. However, it does not hit a revisit every 15 minutes, so Mr. Deren may be talking about another constellation that will be launching in the near future. The use of geostationary satellites as relays, in order to minimize system latency, can however already be implemented on Yaogan-30.

Li Deren also explains that future developments will bring together the traditionally separate functions of communication, Earth observation and positioning in a single system, and that the data will be sent directly to end-user phones to minimize latency and maximize their impact:

" The perceived data will be intelligently processed to provide users with the function of PNTRC, P representing the position, N the navigation route, T the time, R the remote sensing image [Remote sensing in English], and C the communication, c ' that is, this information can be sent to the receiving device in your hand. "

This plan looks like two drops of water to the American ambitions to equip itself with a multi-layered military constellation to ensure communications, anti-ballistic missile warning and Earth observation. Given the extent of Chinese investments in the field, we must not doubt that they will manage to develop an equivalent system, and that therefore we have not finished hearing about large constellations of Chinese satellites.
 
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escobar

Brigadier
There are now 5 DF-26 BDE. Each have 18 launcher (think 36 missiles with reload); so 90 launcher and 180 missiles.
Even with its extended range, they are not placed more inland. Seems PLARF want to hit as far as possible.
Also the fact DF-26 is dual-capable makes them impossible to strike without risking nuclear escalation. Likely the reason why they've been deploying them so far forward. Effective deterrence.
EtQnvLaVgAAL3Z-.jpg
Now waiting for the 2 stage HGV missile: ≃ 6000km (DF-27?)
 
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