Ladakh Flash Point

[ougoah]

Why Jai Hind denial and cope?

Because China has pushed ahead and occupied land successfully. India was pushed out and banned from access.

China has not lost an inch. It's gone in to take two units and has given at least one back in return for India promising to not step foot into a place they used to pollute with their presence. Now IA has not access to F3 to F8. In return for India promising this, PLA gave one unit (that they took idiots!) "back" to a buffer. LOL PLA didn't even give it back to IA, they gave it to what is essentially a Chinese controlled trust account and the Jai Hind morons are crying victory. Is it any wonder this lot brags to the high heavens and is really imaginary "superpower 2012"?

Remind yourselves that Aksai Chin was also disputed land and India lost it. Disputed! It didn't really belong to either side until after the war was fought.

If IA is so super dupa capable, why not shoot and fight? So much bragging from Jai Hinds about mighty India being no.2 only to USA. India's only real no.2 talent belong somewhere else in reality.

 

[twineedle]

ground reality suggest that Indian army(the 3rd largest in the world) lost approximately 1450 sq kms area in Ladakh,even Rahul Gandhi stated that..debunking is just Godi Media narrative

The fact that you have to use Rahul Gandhi's staements shows your desperation, considering his job is literally to criticize the government. Unfortunately for you, satellite imagery shows that India did not lose an inch of territory. You probably cannot even draw that supposed lost territory on a map.

Please provide evidence for your claims, not some random statements.

 

[twineedle]

A glimmer of hope but alas, it was short lived.

Bold 1: You didn't debunk anything. The 1000 km lost is the loss of patrol access to the sum of Depsang and other regions. No satellite imagery proves otherwise.

Bold 2: Here we go, again.

China has posts at the y junction since at least 2000. How can India lose what it never controlled? By your logic, China is aloso denied access to 1000 km because China also claims beyond the lac but is blocked by Indian troops from burtse.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292100480315740160

 

[twineedle]

Btw, @twineedle I know what you are trying to do here regarding Galwan valley.

1. You are trying to say that India patrolled to the Y junction PP14 just before winter.

2. You blame the lack of patrols during winter on weather

3. You still hold on to the 500m /800 m post line of thinking, still betting on the Twitter satellite analyst.

I don't think I need to contest it. Refer previous posts on it.


Disengagement has been announced at the region. It goes as per this map.
View attachment 69654

I have already seen that map. And I did some digging and found several Indian and non Indian sources that contradicted that claim. I have failed to find any other sources corroborating it. Even brig RJS does not completely back up that claim, since he is only quoted as saying that he used to patrol "5-6 km from the Galwan Mouth," and that the lac is east of the point. Well, the bend is 5 km from the mouth. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.

 

[twineedle]

China claims to dashed line. What's so hard to get. That is beyond the blue line which also is the limit of what China used to control and probably only still controls (assuming disengagement at Depsang and Galwan is actually true and complete. This is twineedle's assumption and the only evidence he's got is a random twitter account claiming this because satellite footage of one or two point edges of that dotted line shows PLA troops occupied it and then moved away. Whether they moved away 3km back to the blue line or they moved 200m away is unknown.

For some incredible India level logic, PLA moving away from two points at the forward position at Galwan valley is somehow equivalent to the total 3km moving back of PLA back to the blue line where China actually controls and India still claims to and then another 20 or so km (Aksai Chin).

View attachment 69655

China hasn't lost an inch of territory. It's only occupied Indian claimed land (disputed between the two) and moved back at Pangong. It is unknown what the situation is at Depsang and Galwan. At least it's not 100% clear to Jai Hinds. While their guesses and hopes may be correct, it is nonetheless flimsy conjecture to claim PLA has never been beyond the blue line for long. Well for starters, the violent clashes happened beyond the blue line and satellite shows PLA camped beyond the blue line and while two photos show river bank flooding and both sides not occupying bend, this doesn't truly prove anything on the topic of whether PLA has some presence beyond the blue line in Depsang or Galwan valley/river.

PLA moving away from Pangong F4 back to F8 is not a retreat if you consider that the only reason PLA moved back is because India agreed it will not go beyond F3 and of course will not patrol anything beyond F3. This is a change from the past where India both patrolled beyond F3 and while they still claim to F8, if they can't take a step beyond F3 as they have agreed, then what use is claiming to F8? lol the agreement they gave China essentially makes their claim to F8 completely redundant. The only way these worthless Jai Hinds can cope with this is by lying and saying that India never patrolled beyond F3 LOL..... then they realised how stupid this claim is and changed it to India "rarely" patrolled beyond F3. Okayyyyyyy Rakesh. Your own four star general says India violates LAC and intrudes past it (LAC somewhere between F4 and F8 by definition) more than 5 times as often as PLA does.

The only ones coping with this is the Jai Hinds who need to soothe themselves with the dressed up misunderstanding of what PLA retreat entails for them. Have they forgotten the PLA "retreat" came at the cost of Indian retreat to behind F3 and never stepping foot on their claims again (unless they violate their own agreement which was the only thing that convinced China to remove PLA). Without Indian surrender, there would be no PLA retreat. IA fought and pushed PLA but couldn't defeat PLA. There was nothing to stop PLA from taking. The only reason PLA was ordered back by China was because India agreed to certain things that are more than clear and obvious enough but Jai Hinds will not mention this at all or even recognise it. This shit is worse than that pathetic Alpha Jai Hind Defence moron arguing with the only slightly more reasonable Red Effect guy. It's a funny shit show and this drama is beginning to become almost comedic with elements of Jai Hind denial and cope.

PLA "retreated" because India surrendered F4 to F8. If India managed to push back PLA by force, then that's another story. If India started the shooting war, that's another story. India was able to do neither.

First of all, when did I claim that China lost land? I was responding to someone who incorrectly claimed the opposite.

And are you denying that China had also been patrolling up to and beyond finger 4, and that china claims finger 2/3? By your logic Isn't China losing access to just as much territory, more if you consider pla going beyond finger 4?

And even if you believe India had patrolled up to f8, it clearly happened much less than China patrolling to finger2/3, meaning that the area was already under the effective control of China, even though China never reinforced that control through physical occupation until last year.

In exchange for getting China to stop violating its claim line through patrols as it had frequently been doing the past decade and destroying strategic infrastructure, India withdrew mirror deployments near finger 4 and gave up patrolling rights it never had.

And what makes you think VK Singh was reffering to Pangong? He was simply refferring to the entire lac. I already said that likely means areas where India enjoys tactical advantages. North Pangong is not one of them. For example recently, there was a video of Indian soldiers on the chinese side of the lac in Arunachal. A purposefully disambiguous statement is by no means evidence of recent Indian patrols to finger 8.

India has not had access to finger 8 because PLA soldiers use the road they build in 2000 to block the botttleneck of finger 4. THere are several videos of confrontations between Indian and Chinese troops there, in 2017 and 2019. But I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.

Also, I am not sure what your maps are trying to show. The dotted line is roughly where China reached in 1962, and is the de facto lac . Do you mean that China does not have any permanent posts past the blue line? And what is the dashed area in the second image? Are you saying China claims that area.



BTW, it is interesting that Brig RJS' testimony is taken to be completely true, even though he hasn't served there since the 70s, even though not a single other Indian or non-indian source backs him up, and even when he does not even dispute Indian media claims. Yet Col Dinny, who recently served on Pangong, is accused of lying for the Indian government.

I thought we already agreed and/or agreed to disagree on most of these topics?

 

[jfy1155]

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[twineedle]

Anyway, I am not sure what the confusion is with Galwan. China's statements indicate that it expanded its claims, while India's claims have always remained the same, up to the line shown on Google, and in the al jazeera article, as well as this analysis by raj

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There are no old patrolling points or claim lines, at least as far as India is concerned. India has always recognized the lac running several hundred meters east of the bend. that status quo has not changed.

 

[Xizor]

I have already seen that map. And I did some digging and found several Indian and non Indian sources that contradicted that claim. I have failed to find any other sources corroborating it. Even brig RJS does not completely back up that claim, since he is only quoted as saying that he used to patrol "5-6 km from the Galwan Mouth," and that the lac is east of the point. Well, the bend is 5 km from the mouth. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.

No one has countered his claims. All you have are "fresh" soldiers going with the government narrative.

Another one of those "agreeing to disagree" .

He draws the map.
Read the article.

 

[AZaz09dude]

Here we go again

 

[Xizor]

The fact that you have to use Rahul Gandhi's staements shows your desperation, considering his job is literally to criticize the government. Unfortunately for you, satellite imagery shows that India did not lose an inch of territory. You probably cannot even draw that supposed lost territory on a map.

Please provide evidence for your claims, not some random statements.

The Indian government has acknowledged that it can't patrol certain regions.
It also reframed patrol points.

Yes. That can be construed as losing territory (especially when you are intent on "China retreat" narrative).

There are no old patrolling points or claim lines, at least as far as India is concerned. India has always recognized the lac running several hundred meters east of the bend. that status quo has not changed.

Good. So that means India lost territory as LAC is now shifted to the bend. Old PP14 isn't the new PP14.

Indian government also lied to its people and media. Great.