Hong-Kong Protests

[texx1]

I disagree.

Foreign influenced education is the biggest part of the problem. When majority of the civil servants and elites sent their children at the age of eight to British schools, do you think these kids would be loyal to China and Hong Kong. After a few decades and hundreds of thousands of these youngsters been educated in UK and come back to HK, many of them become lawyers, doctors, accountants, civil servants, politicians, businessmen. What do you think, would happen to the Hong Kong society.

Same thing with the mainland Chinese, during the early days of the pandemic, those British educated kids were chartered back to mainland and given special privileges. Do you think these kids would grow up and have positive views of China.

This just illustrates the current power disparity between the west and PRC. Hk and mainland elites willingly send their children to foreign educations because western educations have advantages in certain technical areas as well as future job prospects. In the hopes of maximizing their children's chances of getting into top western universities, many young kids were sent before they developed the proper worldviews. Hence, they are susceptible to anti Chinese media as well as anti Chinese lecturers.

From my personal experience of Chinese international students, those who completed high school in China are much less likely to be brainwashed. And you are absolutely right, the western worship problem is not exclusive to hongkongers, many mainland elites are having the same issue which could create an even bigger problem in the future.

When the HK media constantly exaggerated some negative news about mainland China and at the same time glorified Westerners every day. When the media blame the mainland Chinese for every problems in HK. How would that affect the thinking of average Hong Kongers. I think many people underestimate the power of the propaganda and media. At the beginning of the protests, many young kids who never been to China and don't have strong political views but in matter of days they become the core of the protests and riots. It is not only superior complex and tribalism that turn these youngsters to become rioters but the Hong Kong society has been infiltrated from top to bottom so that the US and Taiwan could easily incite hatred and violence.

I don't want to minimize the issue of superiority complex of some Hong Kong people or the issue of special privileges. But whatever superiority complex that Hong Kongers have, it isn't the main factor anymore as the rise of China has made sure that Hong Kongers aren't better. No matter how much they want to deny that. As for privileges, all privileges should be eliminated or reciprocal. However, these privileges were not granted to Hong Kongers alone but also to overseas Chinese and Taiwanese. The aim is to attract talents but the issue of fairness hasn't been addressed.

I do think the central government needs to take a hard line to force the Hong Kong government to allow mainland professionals to work in Hong Kong. Many of these medical and lawyer associations are anti-China anyway. So Hong Kong government doesn't have a good reason to delay the process of granting licenses to mainland professionals.

My position is that the preferential treatments create a fertile environment for superiority complex and tribalism to develop and multiple in hongkong. These sentiments made integration much more difficult. During the protest, many wanted to protect hongkong's culture and view mainlanders as locusts, or threats to their way of life. It provides an easy avenue for foreign influenced media to sow division. Propaganda catering to existing beliefs are far more trustworthy and effective.

In order for China to fully integrate Hong Kong, central government must make Hkers truly want to be PRC citizens instead of only Hong kong citizens. Buying them off is often very unreliable.

As PRC rises, the central government needs to slowly rebuild the lost confidence of Chinese citizens, unfair policies catering to foreigners, hongkongers, Taiwanese devalues PRC citizenship and delegitimizes Chinese government by making CCP look weak. It also reduces pro-china media's own influence. As regular Hkers will rightly ask why they want to integrate with mainland when being hongkonger is clearly better.

 

[KYli]

My position is that the preferential treatments create a fertile environment for superiority complex and tribalism to develop and multiple in hongkong. These sentiments made integration much more difficult. During the protest, many wanted to protect hongkong's culture and view mainlanders as locusts, or threats to their way of life. It provides an easy avenue for foreign influenced media to sow division. Propaganda catering to existing beliefs are far more trustworthy and effective.

In order for China to fully integrate Hong Kong, central government must make Hkers truly want to be PRC citizens instead of only Hong kong citizens. Buying them off is often very unreliable.

As PRC rises, the central government needs to slowly rebuild the lost confidence of Chinese citizens, unfair policies catering to foreigners, hongkongers, Taiwanese devalues PRC citizenship and delegitimizes Chinese government by making CCP look weak. It also reduces pro-china media's own influence. As regular Hkers will rightly ask why they want to integrate with mainland when being hongkonger is clearly better.

I certainly agree with the sentiment that preferential treatments of any types should be eliminated or curtailed. But I strongly disagree preferential treatments are the primary reason for the failure of integration between China and Hong Kong.

Many people failed to realize that the divisions and culture difference between China and HK were sowed decades before handover. Decades ago, when my great grandfather and grandfather were working in HK, Cantonese isn't the primary language. Cantonese became the primary language was in 1967. After the 67 riots, the British government wanted to eliminate the culture connection between China and Hong Kong and sow an unique Hong Kong identity. It implemented various changes and one of the most important changes is to prohibit any Hong Kong schools to teach in other Chinese languages other than Cantonese. At the time, native Hong Kongers speak Weitou dialect, Minnan and Mandarin were also spoken and taught by many people. All radio stations and TV stations were also prohibited to use other Chinese languages. This is the beginning of Hong Kong identity.

Some people have forgotten Hong Kong was a colony. The British didn't even allow elections until 80s. Civil servants and courts can use only English until 70s. Most high government positions were filled by people sent by the UK until 80s and 90s. So how did the British create a HK identity in just a few decades(Tribalism and localism aren't wrong but national identity should be upmost important). Divide and conquer, making Cantonese the official language to ally itself with the biggest group, promoting local elites and sending their children to educate in the UK, promising that the elites would grant the UK citizens after the handover to gain their loyalty, implementation of elections to cultivate oppositions just before the handover, shutting down pro-China media and allying itself with HK tycoons to buy and control HK media, the creation and expansion of the Special branch to eliminate pro-China people from important positions and jailed them or deported them.

Understandably, the central government was reluctant to intervene in HK affair during the early days of the handover. But the 04 protests and the subsequent abandon of the article 23 were the beginning of the rise of the oppositions. The West and Hong Kong oppositions were emboldened to see that China wanted the 1C2S to be successful due to Taiwan and at the time HK was still an important gateway to the world. It senses the central government weakness and desire to maintain stability at all cost to begin the implementation of color revolution.

From my perspective, the central government failed to instill fear and who is in charge mentality to average Hong Kongers is the first failure of the integration. Fear, authority, power, and respect might not be well received but they are all important tools for integration. When British soldiers rampant all over HK and do whatever they want. The Chinese soldiers were locked in the gate and cordon off from the society. Even if the central government didn't want to create disruptions toward HK, a show of force is important thing that these soldiers should have done after the handover. National security laws should have enacted immediately after the handover. The failure to enact the national security laws and the disband of special branch have left HK without any tools to fight foreign interference etc.

Don't overthink superior complex. When face with absolute power, these people were crying like a baby and begging for forgiveness. I know enough of Hong Kongers that advocate for independent to say most of them are just cowards. And many of the most radicals were either born in China or the descendants of the mainland parents. Those 3rd and 4th generations Hong Kongers were not even dare to be in the frontline of the protests.

 

[texx1]

I certainly agree with the sentiment that preferential treatments of any types should be eliminated or curtailed. But I strongly disagree preferential treatments are the primary reason for the failure of integration between China and Hong Kong.

Many people failed to realize that the divisions and culture difference between China and HK were sowed decades before handover. Decades ago, when my great grandfather and grandfather were working in HK, Cantonese isn't the primary language. Cantonese became the primary language was in 1967. After the 67 riots, the British government wanted to eliminate the culture connection between China and Hong Kong and sow an unique Hong Kong identity. It implemented various changes and one of the most important changes is to prohibit any Hong Kong schools to teach in other Chinese languages other than Cantonese. At the time, native Hong Kongers speak Weitou dialect, Minnan and Mandarin were also spoken and taught by many people. All radio stations and TV stations were also prohibited to use other Chinese languages. This is the beginning of Hong Kong identity.

Some people have forgotten Hong Kong was a colony. The British didn't even allow elections until 80s. Civil servants and courts can use only English until 70s. Most high government positions were filled by people sent by the UK until 80s and 90s. So how did the British create a HK identity in just a few decades(Tribalism and localism aren't wrong but national identity should be upmost important). Divide and conquer, making Cantonese the official language to ally itself with the biggest group, promoting local elites and sending their children to educate in the UK, promising that the elites would grant the UK citizens after the handover to gain their loyalty, implementation of elections to cultivate oppositions just before the handover, shutting down pro-China media and allying itself with HK tycoons to buy and control HK media, the creation and expansion of the Special branch to eliminate pro-China people from important positions and jailed them or deported them.

Thanks for the detailed historic perspective; I admit my focus was on the time after hongkong's return. Preferential treatments certainly reduce the attractiveness of integration.

These unfair policies serve as a symptom of central government's passivity and weakness regarding Hongkong. The unfortunate truth is that the central government didn't actually control Hongkong in general sense until the recent implementation of national security laws as well as the royalty oath requirements for civil servants. Even this move was half-hearted since they still face a hostile judiciary. I agree with you that, CCP basically just left post-handover HongKong to unreliable British-trained civil servants and failed to defuse numerous traps intentionally created by the British. The creation of Hong Kong identity that is purposefully separated from china is one of traps. And I believe the current unfair policies are counterproductive to defusing this trap.

Understandably, the central government was reluctant to intervene in HK affair during the early days of the handover. But the 04 protests and the subsequent abandon of the article 23 were the beginning of the rise of the oppositions. The West and Hong Kong oppositions were emboldened to see that China wanted the 1C2S to be successful due to Taiwan and at the time HK was still an important gateway to the world. It senses the central government weakness and desire to maintain stability at all cost to begin the implementation of color revolution.

From my perspective, the central government failed to instill fear and who is in charge mentality to average Hong Kongers is the first failure of the integration. Fear, authority, power, and respect might not be well received but they are all important tools for integration. When British soldiers rampant all over HK and do whatever they want. The Chinese soldiers were locked in the gate and cordon off from the society. Even if the central government didn't want to create disruptions toward HK, a show of force is important thing that these soldiers should have done after the handover. National security laws should have enacted immediately after the handover. The failure to enact the national security laws and the disband of special branch have left HK without any tools to fight foreign interference etc.

Even though China's rise has reduced Hongkong's importance in the overall Chinese economy, it currently still provides several irreplaceable advantages to western investors such as no capital control, freely convertible currency, and most importantly the west leaning judiciary. Foreign money feels much safer in Hong Kong due their already gained influence over its legal system. The fact that China hasn't moved against Hongkong's judges yet shows central government is also concerned about the impact of legal reform would have on foreign investments.

Since central government is still at least publicly committed to 1C2S, the high profile and direct use of fear and authority is somewhat unlikely. The elimination of unfair policies is a relatively easy and workable action for taking the status of Hongkong identity down a peg as it is low risk and only concerning mainland where CCP has near absolute control. It also sends a strong message to Hongkongers that your local identity is not above national identity.

Don't overthink superior complex. When face with absolute power, these people were crying like a baby and begging for forgiveness. I know enough of Hong Kongers that advocate for independent to say most of them are just cowards. And many of the most radicals were either born in China or the descendants of the mainland parents. Those 3rd and 4th generations Hong Kongers were not even dare to be in the frontline of the protests.

I appreciate the importance of absolute power. From my personal experiences, I agree that Hongkongers will absolutely fall in line when faced with absolute power. However I don't believe CCP currently possesses the will to use it. Remember, PLA soldiers from Hongkong garrison only appeared in civilian clothing to clean up during the height of protest.

 

[KYli]

Even though China's rise has reduced Hongkong's importance in the overall Chinese economy, it currently still provides several irreplaceable advantages to western investors such as no capital control, freely convertible currency, and most importantly the west leaning judiciary. Foreign money feels much safer in Hong Kong due their already gained influence over its legal system. The fact that China hasn't moved against Hongkong's judges yet shows central government is also concerned about the impact of legal reform would have on foreign investments.

Since central government is still at least publicly committed to 1C2S, the high profile and direct use of fear and authority is somewhat unlikely. The elimination of unfair policies is a relatively easy and workable action for taking the status of Hongkong identity down a peg as it is low risk and only concerning mainland where CCP has near absolute control. It also sends a strong message to Hongkongers that your local identity is not above national identity.

Frankly, at the moment the central government and Guangdong provincial government both prefer to expand some preferential policies and eliminate other outdated ones. The thinking rightly or wrongly is still dismantling the barriers instead of erecting even more barriers for the Pearl River Delta integration. I think some new policies would grant all special talents a 15% tax rate to work in certain area in Pearl River Delta and hiring HKers and Macau people for some government jobs. Not saying this is a good thing.

Understandably, many mainland Chinese have grievances over these policies. Personally, I would prefer the Hong Kong government to immediately grant an easy access for mainland talents and professionals to travel and work in Hong Kong. In the end of the day, the discrimination and prejudice against mainland Chinese and mainland Chinese professionals is strongly tied to the oppositions and their supporters and local interest groups, the majority of Hong Kongers suffer under the monopoly and local protectionism of these professional associations. In addition, I think you are too critical in some area such as universities. All Hong Kong universities provide generous government grants to tens of thousands mainland Chinese students each year to cover all their expenses for them to come to HK for education. Of course, the goal is to retain Chinese talents but it still much more generous than other places.

I would argue that the central government understands that HK is still valuable but at the same time it is willing to do whatever it needs to crush traitors. Foreign money wouldn't stop coming to HK as long as the money can flow freely. After reform over district councils, the election committee, and legislative council, judicial and education would be soon follow. I would argue 1C2S isn't upmost important like it used to be since peaceful reunification with Taiwan is out of question. National security laws actually is the most powerful tool ever enacted by the central government. So many oppositions and traitors have retired, fled, and jailed. NSL is the most powerful message and signal that the central government sent to HKers which remind them who is in charge.

I appreciate the importance of absolute power. From my personal experiences, I agree that Hongkongers will absolutely fall in line when faced with absolute power. However I don't believe CCP currently possesses the will to use it. Remember, PLA soldiers from Hongkong garrison only appeared in civilian clothing to clean up during the height of protest.

At the moment, NSL has already crushed the rioters. Thousands of them have fled HK. If the judges tried to hamper NSL, then expected them to be crushed also. The most important thing right now is going after the money. Some of those fled got millions of donation money and those churches and NGOs all posses tens of millions donations. That's the reason why those rioters are so well equipped and organized and funded. I am not holding out much hope for this generation of youngsters. It requires education, media and judicial reform to instill national identity to those that might not have been born or just in the kindergarten.

 

[B.I.B.]

This just illustrates the current power disparity between the west and PRC. Hk and mainland elites willingly send their children to foreign educations because western educations have advantages in certain technical areas as well as future job prospects. In the hopes of maximizing their children's chances of getting into top western universities, many young kids were sent before they developed the proper worldviews. Hence, they are susceptible to anti Chinese media as well as anti Chinese lecturers.

From my personal experience of Chinese international students, those who completed high school in China are much less likely to be brainwashed. And you are absolutely right, the western worship problem is not exclusive to hongkongers, many mainland elites are having the same issue which could create an even bigger problem in the future.


My position is that the preferential treatments create a fertile environment for superiority complex and tribalism to develop and multiple in hongkong. These sentiments made integration much more difficult. During the protest, many wanted to protect hongkong's culture and view mainlanders as locusts, or threats to their way of life. It provides an easy avenue for foreign influenced media to sow division. Propaganda catering to existing beliefs are far more trustworthy and effective.

In order for China to fully integrate Hong Kong, central government must make Hkers truly want to be PRC citizens instead of only Hong kong citizens. Buying them off is often very unreliable.

As PRC rises, the central government needs to slowly rebuild the lost confidence of Chinese citizens, unfair policies catering to foreigners, hongkongers, Taiwanese devalues PRC citizenship and delegitimizes Chinese government by making CCP look weak. It also reduces pro-china media's own influence. As regular Hkers will rightly ask why they want to integrate with mainland when being hongkonger is clearly better.

My brother has a friend who immigrated from China with his family when he was about ten and eventually completed a masters in mechantronics. The father travelled back and forth from NZ to China where he had his business on a regular basis. They then had another baby boy who was born in NZ. The boy went to school in NZ until he was about 6 and went back to China for his childhood schooling and coming back to NZ during term breaks. He cane back to NZ when he was about 13 and received the rest of his education in a NZ school and is now in his 4th year at med school.

 

[Litebreeze]

For a change, a legal scholar of Hk and Macao studies is gathering supports to send Jimmy Lai to China for trial.

"...Professor Gu Minkang described Lai as the “commander-in-chief” for anti-government and anti-China activities. He also called him a “top traitor” colluding with foreign forces. If he gets a lenient sentence, the dignity of national security law would be damaged."​

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Good to know HKers can also see the problem with the judicial system.

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“When Hongkongers are having doubts about some judges, of course, it is reasonable and lawful to transfer Lai’s case to mainland legal authorities for trial,” Gu said.​

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"According to the national security law, mainland courts can take charge of certain cases if a serious situation occurs where the SAR government is unable to effectively enforce this Law or a major and imminent threat to national security has occurred."​

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[Litebreeze]

Another group of HKers voicing their opinion. They do seem to see thing as it is and tell it as it is.

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"Not only did they not condemn the violence, but they also spoke as if the rioters were the victims of "the deteriorating situation in Hong Kong and the worrying developments in the abuse and restriction of human rights". This was what they said in a letter addressed to the US Congress."​

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[texx1]

Frankly, at the moment the central government and Guangdong provincial government both prefer to expand some preferential policies and eliminate other outdated ones. The thinking rightly or wrongly is still dismantling the barriers instead of erecting even more barriers for the Pearl River Delta integration. I think some new policies would grant all special talents a 15% tax rate to work in certain area in Pearl River Delta and hiring HKers and Macau people for some government jobs. Not saying this is a good thing.

Understandably, many mainland Chinese have grievances over these policies. Personally, I would prefer the Hong Kong government to immediately grant an easy access for mainland talents and professionals to travel and work in Hong Kong. In the end of the day, the discrimination and prejudice against mainland Chinese and mainland Chinese professionals is strongly tied to the oppositions and their supporters and local interest groups, the majority of Hong Kongers suffer under the monopoly and local protectionism of these professional associations. In addition, I think you are too critical in some area such as universities. All Hong Kong universities provide generous government grants to tens of thousands mainland Chinese students each year to cover all their expenses for them to come to HK for education. Of course, the goal is to retain Chinese talents but it still much more generous than other places.

Which city will lead the greater bay area integration is still an open question. It could very well still be Hong Kong. However HK's chance has dropped somewhat after the protest. I doubt the Xi would put as much policy emphasis on Hongkong until it could prove its actual royalty. It would be different from before when HK oppositions manged to scuttle Shenzhen's connection to Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Mancau bridge and create its small daily quotas for vehicles with mainland plates.

Recently, there is also news that Guangdong government plans to make Guangzhou a more internationalized city. This development could mean future competitions for Hongkong down the road.

As for new policies, Shenzhen government just opened a few civil servant positions exclusive to Hongkongers. However, the response to this development is mostly negative on Chinese social media with many emphasizing that they should be carefully screened for political reliability. I think the central government shouldn't be seen as too weak and accommodating to Hkers after the protest especially possible policies like extra-territorial rights in free trade zones for HK in Guangdong. It would be a public disaster for CCP if HK was granted in effect mini colonies in mainland. After all, mainland Chinese are CCP"s most reliable supporters.

In terms of universities, admissions should be fair and as stringent as possible. Any good educational intuitions shouldn't be lower its standards for anyone. And I doubt HK government provides grants to mainland students who score below HK's own admission standards.

I would argue that the central government understands that HK is still valuable but at the same time it is willing to do whatever it needs to crush traitors. Foreign money wouldn't stop coming to HK as long as the money can flow freely. After reform over district councils, the election committee, and legislative council, judicial and education would be soon follow. I would argue 1C2S isn't upmost important like it used to be since peaceful reunification with Taiwan is out of question. National security laws actually is the most powerful tool ever enacted by the central government. So many oppositions and traitors have retired, fled, and jailed. NSL is the most powerful message and signal that the central government sent to HKers which remind them who is in charge.


At the moment, NSL has already crushed the rioters. Thousands of them have fled HK. If the judges tried to hamper NSL, then expected them to be crushed also. The most important thing right now is going after the money. Some of those fled got millions of donation money and those churches and NGOs all posses tens of millions donations. That's the reason why those rioters are so well equipped and organized and funded. I am not holding out much hope for this generation of youngsters. It requires education, media and judicial reform to instill national identity to those that might not have been born or just in the kindergarten.

National security law is still be enforced under Hong Kong judges chosen by the Chief executive. Since we all know many HK judges have foreign citizenships or green cards, their reliability is still suspect. Not to mention numerous bails were granted to protest leaders who eventually escaped. Also HK chief executive appointed a few foreign judges even after the protest. Since HK recognizes dual citizenship, I am not aware of any legislation preventing dual nationals to serve as civil servant in HK. In other words, there are still rooms for anti china forces to maneuver.

SCMP did report rumors that Chinese people's congress is considering the reform of HK's legislative council and removing some opposition seats. I sincerely hope this will happen as it will be another step for PRC to take back control and to choke off anti-china forces in HK. And I agree with you that the current HK generation is a lost cause.

 

[Litebreeze]

Another sounds effort. Department of justice appeals of Jimmy Lai bail.

"After the High Court indicated approved Jimmy Lai’s bail application today, the Department of Justice immediately stated that it would appeal to the Court of Final Appeal in accordance with Article 35(2) of the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Ordinance within 7 days to continue to remand the defendant while awaiting appeal."​

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This judge should be investigated. Don't wait till judges like this make another poor judgement.

"While handling the bail procedures, Judge Alex Lee W.T also considered the application of the Department of Justice. However, he finally refused the Department of Justice’s request to continue remand Lai on the grounds that he did not have the authority to make relevant decisions."​

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[Gatekeeper]

Where's the outrage from the MSM? Armnisty international? Sanctions to follow etc.

Here we've almost identical situation to that in which Hong Kong youth was shot a year ago. And the western nations recoiled in horror.

Yet today, a man was actually killed by OZ police and it hardly made the national news. Talk about hypocrisy!

And you guys talked about soft and hard power? Here's prove who controls the soft power.

Sydney man Bradley Balzan shot dead by police after grabbing officer's gun

A man being chased by police has been shot dead after grabbing an officer's gun during a struggle in Western Sydney.

The plainclothes officer's gun was fired during the scuffle at St Marys, prompting a second officer to open fire on the suspect.

Four ambulances, a helicopter and a specialist medical team were sent to the scene but the suspect went into cardiac arrest and could not be saved by paramedics.

Police said the pursuit began after four plainclothes officers saw 20-year-old Bradley Balzan "acting suspiciously" near the St Marys Hotel, and tried to speak to him.

Mr Balzan ran several hundred metres back to his home on Acacia Avenue, where he jumped a fence into the back yard, followed by two of the officers who confronted him.

NSW Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Jones said during the struggle that followed, one of the police officers had his service weapon taken from him.

"There was a scuffle in relation to that weapon, during which time one round we believe — possibly more — was fired from that firearm," said Assistant Commissioner Jones.

"As a result of that shot, a second police officer has fired one round, we believe, which has hit the male person in the stomach.

"Tragically, and unfortunately that male has died as a result of that gunshot wound."

Police told the ABC they believe Mr Balzan fired the shot during the struggle.

They were not immediately able to say whether the police firearm was holstered or in the officer's hand when it was grabbed.

During the incident, Mr Balzan's dog bit one of the officers.

That officer was taken to hospital to be treated for minor injuries.

After the shooting police locked down the area around Acacia Street, with specialist officers including teams from the Public Order and Riot Squad conducting a thorough search of the area.

Family, neighbours in shock

Family members have told the ABC Mr Balzan was mugged recently and may have been nervous as a result.

They said they were devastated by the loss of the young man, who was an only son and worked as a tradie.

"I don't know why they can't use other forms of force first, maybe a taser or something," neighbour Troy King said.

"Why they have to shoot him, I don't know. It's tragic."

"I [am] devastated. I don't know him, but I see him often around the neighbourhood," neighbour Rin Brigantinis told the ABC.

Assistant Commissioner Jones said the shooting was being treated as a critical incident.

He was not able to give further detail on why police felt Mr Balzan was "acting suspiciously."

Homicide detectives will prepare a report for the coroner, with the investigation being overseen by the Law Enforcement Complaints Commission.