China Flanker Thread II

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Blitzo

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So what is the chance we will see a J-11D with TVC? Nil?

Given the investment into J-20 I think it is more likely we will see upgrades of existing airframes for air force fighters. With only J-16 and maybe J-15 Flankers remaining in production.

I wouldn't be completely surprised if they might take one of the J-11D prototypes is adopted as a test platform with TVC WS-10s for general flight testing and flight research purposes.



But I'd be surprised if we saw new build J-11D airframes produced.
Continued production of J-16, J-15 and of course J-11BG upgrades (the last especially) would be perfectly viable and should many of the same capabilities while not requiring Flanker production slots that could go to J-16 and J-15 instead.
 

sequ

Captain
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Look, I don't really want to continue this hopelessly off-topic debate, but have you check the source I posted instead of refuting what I said because the cockpit pictures 'look like they precede Su-30SM'?

And anyway, this discussion has gone off topic. Mods, please delete my post as you see fit.

I've compared the cockpit images provided in your link with the cockpit images in the cutout I posted in #8064. The two right pictures of the cockpit in the cutout don't resemble any of the cockpits that you have provided in your links. The MFD's are different as well as the HUD.
 

Tam

Brigadier
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I've compared the cockpit images provided in your link with the cockpit images in the cutout I posted in #8064. The two right pictures of the cockpit in the cutout don't resemble any of the cockpits that you have provided in your links. The MFD's are different as well as the HUD.

Venenzuelan MK2. Don't assume the PLAAF is very generous that they will show you the cockpit of their aircraft directly.

Look at the JF-17's cockpit as a clue to what the J-10 and J-11B cockpits might look like.

 

Deino

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Venenzuelan MK2. Don't assume the PLAAF is very generous that they will show you the cockpit of their aircraft directly.

Look at the JF-17's cockpit as a clue to what the J-10 and J-11B cockpits might look like.



Guys ... I don't know what are you discussing?!!! We have pretty clear "clue to what the J-10 and J-11B cockpits might look like" and not might look like; we know them. As such it is a quite strange discussion.

J-11B cockpit 3.jpgJ-11B cockpit 2.jpg
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
So what is the chance we will see a J-11D with TVC? Nil?

Given the investment into J-20 I think it is more likely we will see upgrades of existing airframes for air force fighters. With only J-16 and maybe J-15 Flankers remaining in production.

It’s a far more complex and difficult job to retrofit TVC to twin engines fighters than single engined ones, well it is if you want to use TVC to its full potential with differential directional thrust.

On top of the already formidable FCS law re-writes, a far more challenging potential issue would be structural. Especially on a plane like your flanker with widely spaced engines.

On fighters, very kg is precious, so the odds of the baseline flanker airframe having the structural tolerances built in to handle differential directional thrust from TVC is slim to none. That may be a major contributing factor to why early Russian TVC testbed flankers did not feature differential deflection capabilities.

Indeed, one of the main reasons for the PLAAF to press ahead with its Su35 purchase may well be a desire to see what kind of structural reinforcements the Russians needed to put in to allow it handle differential thrust TVC.

The Su35 purchase is also another reason why I would rate it less likely that the Chinese would develop a J11/16 flanker TVC testbed. Why spending millions of dollars and years of research to re-invent the wheel when you already have the solutions from decades of Russian testing and refinements in the form of the Su35?

Indeed, the structural refinements on the Su35 compared to the baseline J11 and enhanced J16s would be if especial interest to the Chinese in helping to cut down on the time and efforts needed to adapt the J20 for TVC, if that was not already built into the design from the offset.

But even if structural strength to handle full TVC was already built in, looking at the evolution of the Flanker line may still yield useful info on how to better refine the existing design.
 

sequ

Captain
Registered Member
Venenzuelan MK2. Don't assume the PLAAF is very generous that they will show you the cockpit of their aircraft directly.

Look at the JF-17's cockpit as a clue to what the J-10 and J-11B cockpits might look like.


I'm not talking about the J-10's, J-11's and JF-17's cockpits.
 

The Observer

Junior Member
Registered Member
I've compared the cockpit images provided in your link with the cockpit images in the cutout I posted in #8064. The two right pictures of the cockpit in the cutout don't resemble any of the cockpits that you have provided in your links. The MFD's are different as well as the HUD.

I would like to apologize for my stubbornness. It seems the 2 pictures on the right really comes from MKK. here's the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and here're the pictures.

front
Su-30MKK_cockpit1.jpg


back
Su-30MKK_cockpit2.jpg
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
It’s a far more complex and difficult job to retrofit TVC to twin engines fighters than single engined ones, well it is if you want to use TVC to its full potential with differential directional thrust.

On top of the already formidable FCS law re-writes, a far more challenging potential issue would be structural. Especially on a plane like your flanker with widely spaced engines.

On fighters, very kg is precious, so the odds of the baseline flanker airframe having the structural tolerances built in to handle differential directional thrust from TVC is slim to none. That may be a major contributing factor to why early Russian TVC testbed flankers did not feature differential deflection capabilities.

Indeed, one of the main reasons for the PLAAF to press ahead with its Su35 purchase may well be a desire to see what kind of structural reinforcements the Russians needed to put in to allow it handle differential thrust TVC.

The Su35 purchase is also another reason why I would rate it less likely that the Chinese would develop a J11/16 flanker TVC testbed. Why spending millions of dollars and years of research to re-invent the wheel when you already have the solutions from decades of Russian testing and refinements in the form of the Su35?

Indeed, the structural refinements on the Su35 compared to the baseline J11 and enhanced J16s would be if especial interest to the Chinese in helping to cut down on the time and efforts needed to adapt the J20 for TVC, if that was not already built into the design from the offset.

But even if structural strength to handle full TVC was already built in, looking at the evolution of the Flanker line may still yield useful info on how to better refine the existing design.
Emm... but the sukhoi tvc is actually a 2d TVC, and the one on the j-10b is a full 3D TVC, thus I think in fact the Chinese had already invented a different wheel. The control law therefore should be significant different in some way, especially some rumors suggested there is a “4-5 horizontal G” thing on that j-10b, so if this rumor is real, then I won’t be completely supervised if they really pull out some TVC j-11/16, but again why not do it straight on j-20?
 
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