china/taiwan news

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weig2000

Captain
Has the ROC removed that point of representing one China? I asked, since someone claim that was the case and i couldn't find any proof of it doing a quick scan.
Has the ROC removed that point of representing one China? I asked, since someone claim that was the case and i couldn't find any proof of it doing a quick scan.

Various Taiwan administrations, particularly under DPP, have tried all kinds of tricks to distance them from One China, including those under Lee Tenghui, Chen Shuibian, and now Tsai Yingwen. But all of them dare not to change the most important thing, the ROC constitution article that specifically states that Taiwan and mainland China are part of one China. There are various efforts by the Taiwan Independence supporters to hold referendum to change that or declare formal Taiwan Independent, but none of them is successful to have one. Most people with some common sense know the severe consequence of even holding one.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
Or are you saying ROC or PRC government has no sovereignty over Taiwan and Taiwan has somehow become independent? Well, absolutely no. That Taiwan belongs to China is the result of WWII (Cairo Declaration, etc.). Neither the ROC government nor the PRC government has given up Taiwan sovereingty. I'm fully aware that some Taiwan Independence supporters over the years came up with all kinds of silly, stupid and ultimately invalid claims that somehow China does not have sovereignty over Taiwan or at least tries to muddy the water. They don't really stand any serious scrutiny.

That is an interesting fringe theory.

I first came across the theory through professor Y. Frank Chiang's articles, such as "State, Sovereignty and Taiwan, 1999. Therein he makes the argument that sovereignty over territory between warring parties can only be transferred by means of a peace treaty. According to him, the only legally binding treaty here is the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951, whereby Japan renounced sovereignty over Taiwan (instead of ceding it to China). This was clearly in violation of the promise made in the Cairo declaration, but he points out that it was China that first violated the basic principles of non-aggression and no territorial ambitions proclaimed in the Cairo Declaration, by abetting and supporting a communist invasion of South Korea by North Korea.

More recently, I stumbled upon the work of Richard W. Hartzell who goes even further. According to his interpretation of military law: "Taiwan is currently being held by a military administration (under US Military Government) and has not been transferred to a civilian administration (civil government) in the technical sense. This is the reason why during the last fifty years, the ROC authorities have lawfully exercised “the colonial powers of local military governors of a self-governing dominion under SFPT interim status." Source: UNDERSTANDING THE SAN FRANCISCO PEACE TREATY’S DISPOSITION OF FORMOSA AND THE PESCADORES, Richard W. Hartzell

According to Hartzell: After the SFPT cession by Japan, Taiwan is clearly "unincorporated territory under the USMG." In other words, it is foreign territory under the dominion of the US, which is also a very close equivalent to an overseas territory of the US.

Someone made a very bold video using the main points from that article:
 
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weig2000

Captain
That is an interesting fringe theory.

I first came across the theory through professor Y. Frank Chiang's articles, such as "State, Sovereignty and Taiwan, 1999. Therein he makes the argument that sovereignty over territory between warring parties can only be transferred by means of a peace treaty. According to him, the only legally binding treaty here is the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951, whereby Japan renounced sovereignty over Taiwan (instead of ceding it to China).

More recently, I stumbled upon the work of Richard W. Hartzell who goes even further than denouncing China's claim of sovereignty over Taiwan. According to his interpretation of military law: "Taiwan is currently being held by a military administration (under US Military Government) and has not been transferred to a civilian administration (civil government) in the technical sense. This is the reason why during the last fifty years, the ROC authorities have lawfully exercised “the colonial powers of local military governors of a self-governing dominion under SFPT interim status." Source: UNDERSTANDING THE SAN FRANCISCO PEACE TREATY’S DISPOSITION OF FORMOSA AND THE PESCADORES, Richard W. Hartzell

Someone made a very bold video using the main points from that article:

I'm totally familiar with all these arcane arguments. They're not something new and had been forwarded by TIers and its international supporters even since Chiang Kai Shek's era - Chiang Kai Shek and his son Chiang Qingkuo cracked down very harshly on Taiwan Independence movement. The San Francisco Peace Treaty was not signed by PRC, and in any case, all these occurred when the Cold War started and China was divided and PRC was in the opposing camp. Taiwan's legal status was established based on the results of WWII, not Cold War. Trust me, there are all kinds of strange theories to argue about Taiwan's legal status, e.g., one argument says PRC has not ruled Taiwan for a single day therefore PRC has no sovereignty over Taiwan, confusing ruling government with sovereignty.

I sort of understand where they come from; they need some straws to grasp. But one will also have to look at the reality, in addition to legality. UN and pretty much all countries in the world don't recognize Taiwan as an independent country. Not only that, establishing formal diplomatic relationship with PRC is contingent on the countries including the US agreeing/acknowledging the One China policy, which says that PRC is the sole legal representation of the entire China and Taiwan is part of China. This is not just lip service, because they could not maintain formal diplomatic relationship with Taiwan at the same time.

Yes, countries could cut off and withdraw their diplomatic relationship with China. Most of them don't and won't, including the US. In fact, even if the US or, for argument's sake, many countries do that, it won't affect China's sovereignty over Taiwan.

The only way for Taiwan to gain independence is 1) PRC/China agrees to or 2) Taiwan declares independence and wins the subsequent war against mainland China, which means practically impossible in both cases. I also fully understand some people are hoping Taiwan can become independent with the military backing from the US. I will not go into the military details on such scenarios. Anyone with some understanding of the military balance across the strait, even throwing in the external military support, knows that Taiwan won't succeed.

I have once commented to some of my Taiwanese friends that Taiwan actually has a very large and developed economy among countries in the world, its military, particularly Air Force and Navy, is pretty strong - I would argue among the top-20. With the support of the US, against any other countries, it stands a fair good chance to gain independence if it chooses to (also think about what possibly Serbia could about Kosovo). Unfortunately - for the TIers and its supporter, and fortunately for the vast majority of Chinese people throughout the world, Taiwan Independence is facing against one of the few most powerful countries in the world, the only country that even has a realistic possibility to become even more powerful than the US. I suppose this latter possibility is also driving the sudden increased interest in playing the Taiwan card now.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Just so there's no misunderstanding about Taiwan being a country.

Tsai taking her oath of office in front of the founding father of modern China!


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People like our friend with the same name as that traitor joshua in Hong Kong just, either don't get it or refuses to get it and buried their heads in the sand.

As for Beijing pushing the "one China policy". This show how ignorant they are. Who was pushing the one China policy for over twenty years? Give you one guess.

When the west only recognise one China, and that China wasn't the big old landmass in east Asia said it all. I hope this is not too hard for you.

Who's pushing their agenda then?

And as for the Taiwan relations act (TRA). How dare he even mention this as if the US is doing this with honour. The US, as native American would have said, is talking with fork tongue. After agreeing not to supply Taiwan in order to get China onside. They then come up with the TRA.

We all know what the geopolitical picture is apart from them, the traitors. people really ought to brush up with their history before coming out here to make a fool of themselves.

Come on guys. Dont you guys read what's been posted. Here's photos from what I posted a week ago showing Tsai taking her oath as president of ALL of China in front of the founding father of China. So where's the doubt here.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
I have once commented to some of my Taiwanese friends that Taiwan actually has a very large and developed economy among countries in the world, its military, particularly Air Force and Navy, is pretty strong - I would argue among the top-20. With the support of the US, against any other countries, it stands a fair good chance to gain independence if it chooses to (also think about what possibly Serbia could about Kosovo). Unfortunately - for the TIers and its supporter, and fortunately for the vast majority of Chinese people throughout the world, Taiwan Independence is facing against one of the few most powerful countries in the world, the only country that even has a realistic possibility to become even more powerful than the US. I suppose this latter possibility is also driving the sudden increased interest in playing the Taiwan card now.
The unenviable position of Taiwan was aptly summarized by George Kerr:

"The tragedy of the Formosans was that their island lay not far enough away from the continent to make the separation permanent and their frontier life secure from interference [speaking of the mainland settlers from the 17th century]. The island was too small to be independent, and too big and too rich to be ignored."

It is not hard to sympathize with the Taiwanese. They were brutalized into submission by Imperial Japan and subjected to forced Nipponization. Thereafter, upon re-unification with their cousins from the mainland in 1945, ROC government judged them untrustworthy to handle any important government position on their own island before they complete a long and controversial re-education into Chinese culture and language. This is how the ROC government in Taiwan justified it to the international community in 1946:

" ... The other school [the mainland Chinese] points out that complete democratization of Taiwan after fifty-one years of slavery and iron rule by Japan, can not be successful without first undergoing a period of de-Nipponization and Chinese nationalization. If an unprepared people such as this are given democracy at once it can do more harm than good, they point out. A wise administration should grant democracy bit by bit. This will help the people keep control of themselves."

This was contrasted to the proto-TI school of thought, in the same article:

"One school tends to believe that a maximum amount of freedom and rights should be given the Taiwanese who should live under a local government pretty much autonomous if not independent, from the Chinese National Government. Taiwan should be Taiwanese is their slogan. Everywhere they complain and charge the present administration of exercising too much control over them both economically and politically. This group, led mainly by those local gentry and intelligensia [sic] who used to be friendly with their Japanese masters, believes in a closed door policy and insists that Taiwan can be best governed by themselves only."

We all know how ROC dealt with that school of thought ... The sad thing is that the Taiwanese seem destined to a repeat of that purgatory following a second re-unification with the mainland, but this time under CCP.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
The unenviable position of Taiwan was aptly summarized by George Kerr:

"The tragedy of the Formosans was that their island lay not far enough away from the continent to make the separation permanent and their frontier life secure from interference [speaking of the mainland settlers from the 17th century]. The island was too small to be independent, and too big and too rich to be ignored."

It is not hard to sympathize with the Taiwanese. They were brutalized into submission by Imperial Japan and subjected to forced Nipponization. Thereafter, upon re-unification with their cousins from the mainland in 1945, ROC government judged them untrustworthy to handle any important government position on their own island before they complete a long and controversial re-education into Chinese culture and language. This is how the ROC government in Taiwan justified it to the international community in 1946:

" ... The other school [the mainland Chinese] points out that complete democratization of Taiwan after fifty-one years of slavery and iron rule by Japan, can not be successful without first undergoing a period of de-Nipponization and Chinese nationalization. If an unprepared people such as this are given democracy at once it can do more harm than good, they point out. A wise administration should grant democracy bit by bit. This will help the people keep control of themselves."

This was contrasted to the proto-TI school of thought, in the same article:

"One school tends to believe that a maximum amount of freedom and rights should be given the Taiwanese who should live under a local government pretty much autonomous if not independent, from the Chinese National Government. Taiwan should be Taiwanese is their slogan. Everywhere they complain and charge the present administration of exercising too much control over them both economically and politically. This group, led mainly by those local gentry and intelligensia [sic] who used to be friendly with their Japanese masters, believes in a closed door policy and insists that Taiwan can be best governed by themselves only."

We all know how ROC dealt with that school of thought ... The sad thing is that the Taiwanese seem destined to a repeat of that purgatory following a second re-unification with the mainland, but this time under CCP.

They had the chance for one-country-two-system, the PRC was okey with Taiwan retaining its own military after peaceful unification under 1C2S. Yet they chose to be hostile.

This is unfathomable to the PRC, because we believe in "枪杆子里出政权” (political power come forth from military power). Why does these Taiwanese still feel so distrusting and insecure when we allow them to retain their own guns and arms?

You should know that The PRC's proposal of 1C2S for Taiwan was much better than what the KMT was willing to give to the communist areas immediately after 1945.
The only conclusion I can draw is that the PRC is way too lenient and tolerant of Taiwan concession. They are nothing but a bunch of insecure weaklings, no amount of concessions can overcome their fear.

There are a fundamental differences between the people of mainland and the Taiwanese: Mainlanders are doers, Taiwanese are naggers. Sure they have grievances against the KMT, but so did the mainlanders! Yet all them Taiwanese ever do is bitching about it. Mainlanders, on the other hand, took up arms overthrew their KMT asses.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
it is not irrational sensitivity Taiwan is like corkscrew that bottle up China effort to achieve greatness. With Taiwan gone Japan position will be weaken. With Japan neutralized any effort to contain China will be in vain. Korea will also be neutralized
Right now the geography of China lend itself to be contained
That excellently sums up the reason why US and Japan are likely to intervene in a violent attempt at re-unification. They either do that or cede their dominance of the western Pacific to (from their POV) hostile China.

Having said that, I still think it is possible for China to achieve unification without a fight and in a way that would not be challenged by the US and Japan. Long ago, Sun Yat Sen had a dream of a unified, strong and independent, yet democratic China. If the CCP can make that dream come true, then Taiwan would be irresistibly drawn into its orbit and both the US and Japan disarmed in their attempts to resist it.
 
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