China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?

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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
The view from Europe below.
It just hit me that future historians can probably date articles like this (if the publication date was lost for some reason) by the coronavirus body count they mention:
When they look to the United States, they see chaos—a country where even in the face of a disease that has killed more than 91,000 Americans, politicians are unable to put aside partisan sniping and come together.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
US doesn't see China as a partner but almost as an enemy, period. It doesn't matter what China does. The best thing is to be strong so that you can have other options. You invoke "logic" but you are ignoring some facts.

If EU is smart (or any country for that matter) and logical they would choose the best thing for their people. In most of cases it will be more trade/wealth/collaboration and not some meaningless confrontation. Recent Japanese move not joining US regarding HK law is a clear example. Same with Germany not doing anything regarding Huawei or Merkel not going to G7 in USA.

Also, PPP is a more accurate way to compare economic size/markets.



China needs to dissolve itself like Russia but even after that, since Chinese are not white, it will *not* be enough ;)


PPP is great for comparing prices across different countries. Nominal is more important for showing which country has more financial power and which is a more valuable market.
Volkswagen sells more cars in China, but make less money than they do in the US, because each car is sold at a local price (PPP). When you convert those prices to USD (nominal), it turns out they make more money in the US.

Aside from being smaller in nominal size, Chinas market is not nearly as valuable as the US market for EU companies, because there is restrictions on repatriating cash earned in China. Because the CCP is paranoid about people converting RMB into US dollars and sending them back to the EU or elsewhere. US doesn't have this problem because they have essentially an unlimited amount of US dollars.

In my opinion the biggest hurdle for China to overtake the US is not technology or nominal GDP. It is not having a currency that people trust. Even smaller country like Canada or Japan has a more widely used and held currency than China. These countries have no barriers to repatriate cash because capital flight in bad economic times is not a massive issue since people trust the government and the currency.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Volkswagen sells more cars in China, but make less money than they do in the US, because each car is sold at a local price (PPP). When you convert those prices to USD (nominal), it turns out they make more money in the US.
Factually inaccurate. Volkswagen sold almost ten times more cars in China than the US and in 2019, earned $73B in China but only $13B in the US.
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Aside from being smaller in nominal size, Chinas market is not nearly as valuable as the US market for EU companies, because there is restrictions on repatriating cash earned in China. Because the CCP is paranoid about people converting RMB into US dollars and sending them back to the EU or elsewhere. US doesn't have this problem because they have essentially an unlimited amount of US dollars.
This is not a bad point, but the conclusion that EU values China's market less than it values the American one premature. The Chinese market has vastly superior growth potential and as we see, is far better at recovery and resilience than the American one as well.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
There is a lot of anger directed against me here because I said we need to maintain relationship with EU and US. So let me lay it out for everyone why China and Chinese companies need a working relation ship with the West to continue to grow stronger.

US nominal GDP: 21 trillion
EU nominal GDP: 18 trillion
China nominal GDP: 14 trillion

Scenario 1: We maintain good relationships with EU + US:

Chinese companies have access to all 3 markets valued at 53 trillion.


Scenario 2: We have relations with EU but not US:


Chinese companies have access to 2 markets valued at 32 trillion

Scenario 3: Which is what some people are advocating here is we go into cold War with the US and EU.

Chinese company only have access to 1 market worth 14 trillion.


So in which scenario will China grow faster???? Answer this question logically please. Don't just spew the usual taking point "strength = bla bla bla".

Lastly, 4th party countries like SK, Japan will always side with US push come because EU and US market combines are wayyyy bigger.

China is actually at 27 trillion $ in 2020.

European Union fell behind a bit to 18 trillion, but US + EU would have a 10 trillion $ advantage on China.

The idea of being friends with everyone doesn't really work in practice. Also having access to a market doesn't matter if the consumer demand there is weak.

Economic power balance nowadays is a bit like the Three Kingdoms. China's advantage is economy size, but it has weak ties with the other 2 kingdoms, and if both US and EU can band together into 1 entity they could credibly overwhelm China.

China doesn't need to create an alliance outside of what it already has with Russia and a bunch of smaller countries, it only needs to ensure that EU and US never manage to overcome their differences. EU has many legitimate grievances with the USA. It also needs to focus on 1 target to take down instead of pressuring both, which might cause them to unite against common enemy.

Most important to be able to carry out this struggle would be for many more Chinese people to realize this is a zero sum game and empower the government with the ability and trust needed to fight without handicap.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
China is actually at 27 trillion $ in 2020.

European Union fell behind a bit to 18 trillion, but US + EU would have a 10 trillion $ advantage on China.

The idea of being friends with everyone doesn't really work in practice. Also having access to a market doesn't matter if the consumer demand there is weak.

Economic power balance nowadays is a bit like the Three Kingdoms. China's advantage is economy size, but it has weak ties with the other 2 kingdoms, and if both US and EU can band together into 1 entity they could credibly overwhelm China.

China doesn't need to create an alliance outside of what it already has with Russia and a bunch of smaller countries, it only needs to ensure that EU and US never manage to overcome their differences. EU has many legitimate grievances with the USA. It also needs to focus on 1 target to take down instead of pressuring both, which might cause them to unite against common enemy.

Most important to be able to carry out this struggle would be for many more Chinese people to realize this is a zero sum game and empower the government with the ability and trust needed to fight without handicap.


Please refer to nominal GDP not PPP. PPP is not useful for measuring market size, unless the world operates on a barter economy!!!!
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Why is it so important for China to embrace western culture? what western culture has to offer, except jingoism, sabre rattling, colonisation, wars, zero sum? Can't even control Covid-19 in their own country, because they are so full of themselves!??. But envious of China's excellent achievements of controlling the pandemic. Don't forget, despite US and other lackeys criticism, China deliver PPE to numerous countries including the US of A. not to mention sending teams of medical experts and PPE to Africa and other countries all over the world, big or small, and held online discussions and disseminations of information with medical experts around the world. Some western lying politicians openly blamed China for late dissemination of info, that is a total wanton lie spread to discredit China of its timely control of the pandemic. They should check the timeline of the spread. Science, not politics will determine the source of Covid -19, and time will tell. Western countries should learn from China, not the other way round!

Because that means that the Western Jesus Christ is a fake and their empire is not legitimate. It's culture supremacy war with some of these people.
 

vesicles

Colonel
1) Even in scientific progress, the quality of journals like Science and Nature have deteriorated.

Uhhh...... I feel the responsibility to disagree with you on this point. What makes you think the quality of Science and Nature has deteriorated?

Firstly, these highly impact journals publish studies all around the world, not just American researches. Even IF their quality has gone down, it just means the quality of research all around the world has decreased. Moreover, international participation in these journals has steadily increased throughout the years. So even IF their quality is lower, the participation of international researches has dragged down their quality. I highly doubt this is the case though.

Secondly, the impact factors of these journals have been steadily climbing all these years. Meaning that more people are referencing these journals and they are growing in their influence among researchers. I do have to admit that impact factors are not a good indicator of quality. It simply indicates reputation.

To the best of my knowledge, I cannot think of any way to objectively measure the quality of a scientific journal... People have been arguing for years that we need to think of a better way to gauge the quality of scientific journals since impact factor is biased. To the best of my knowledge, no one has found it yet.

I do admit that many studies published in Science, Nature and Cell are flawed. However, that's not why they are published in these journals. A scientifically rigorous study is usually published in specialized journals in each field. For instance, if you study biophysics, you want to publish in Biophysical Journal. If you study biochemistry, you want to publish in the Journal of Biological Chemistry. These specialized journals have low to medium impact factors between 3 and 10, but very well-respected because they publish rigorous studies with extremely high quality. High impact journals, like Science and Nature (impact factors >30), focus on ideas, novel ideas, cool ideas. A lot of times, these ideas are so new that we do not yet have proper tools to rigorously test them. So many of the studies published in Science and Nature seem to not have very high quality. Note that these journals don't publish a study simply because it's a good-quality study. They want novel ideas that no one has thought about. Because of that, they can tolerate a little lower quality.
 

foxmulder

Junior Member
PPP is great for comparing prices across different countries. Nominal is more important for showing which country has more financial power and which is a more valuable market.
Volkswagen sells more cars in China, but make less money than they do in the US, because each car is sold at a local price (PPP). When you convert those prices to USD (nominal), it turns out they make more money in the US.

Aside from being smaller in nominal size, Chinas market is not nearly as valuable as the US market for EU companies, because there is restrictions on repatriating cash earned in China. Because the CCP is paranoid about people converting RMB into US dollars and sending them back to the EU or elsewhere. US doesn't have this problem because they have essentially an unlimited amount of US dollars.

In my opinion the biggest hurdle for China to overtake the US is not technology or nominal GDP. It is not having a currency that people trust. Even smaller country like Canada or Japan has a more widely used and held currency than China. These countries have no barriers to repatriate cash because capital flight in bad economic times is not a massive issue since people trust the government and the currency.


The largest global trade is done by China in nominal terms. China exports $2.5 trillion worth of goods and imports $1.7 trillion, totaling at $4.2 trillion. Whereas US exports $1.7 trillion and imports $2.3 trillion, totaling at 4. So for many countries both of them are very important. When they are forced to choose they will choose not only based on current numbers but also based on growth rates (latest year's numbers were 6.1% vs %2.3). So, China is as competitive as US if not more to earn partners.


Uhhh...... I feel the responsibility to disagree with you on this point. What makes you think the quality of Science and Nature has deteriorated?

Firstly, these highly impact journals publish studies all around the world, not just American researches. Even IF their quality has gone down, it just means the quality of research all around the world has decreased. Moreover, international participation in these journals has steadily increased throughout the years. So even IF their quality is lower, the participation of international researches has dragged down their quality. I highly doubt this is the case though.

Secondly, the impact factors of these journals have been steadily climbing all these years. Meaning that more people are referencing these journals and they are growing in their influence among researchers. I do have to admit that impact factors are not a good indicator of quality. It simply indicates reputation.

To the best of my knowledge, I cannot think of any way to objectively measure the quality of a scientific journal... People have been arguing for years that we need to think of a better way to gauge the quality of scientific journals since impact factor is biased. To the best of my knowledge, no one has found it yet.

I do admit that many studies published in Science, Nature and Cell are flawed. However, that's not why they are published in these journals. A scientifically rigorous study is usually published in specialized journals in each field. For instance, if you study biophysics, you want to publish in Biophysical Journal. If you study biochemistry, you want to publish in the Journal of Biological Chemistry. These specialized journals have low to medium impact factors between 3 and 10, but very well-respected because they publish rigorous studies with extremely high quality. High impact journals, like Science and Nature (impact factors >30), focus on ideas, novel ideas, cool ideas. A lot of times, these ideas are so new that we do not yet have proper tools to rigorously test them. So many of the studies published in Science and Nature seem to not have very high quality. Note that these journals don't publish a study simply because it's a good-quality study. They want novel ideas that no one has thought about. Because of that, they can tolerate a little lower quality.

Most of the findings that are reported in Science/Cell/Nature cannot be even replicated (in another words probably not even true). There was a study 5-6 years ago, a team tried to replicate the main findings of 100 papers published in these three journals and only able to replicate 2!!! yes, 2 out of 100! they also said though because some of the experiments required very high expertise this number can be too low but in any case, when I look at the quality of these studies my take is 1/10 is true 9/10 is there just because of how "sexy" the idea is and people who wrote them are "famous".
 

Wangxi

Junior Member
Registered Member
My opinion may seem controversial, but I am worried that China is making enemies everywhere.

I think China must stop the claims (9 dash lines) in the South China Sea (for the moment), because it endangers the relations with the ASEAN countries

Same for the Senkaku/Diaoyutai Islands with Japan, we must stop poisoning our international relations for such things.

In the past we could do this because we were less on the radar of the USA (who was focused on russia and the middle east)
, but today we have to focus only on the USA, everything else is superficial, and we need allies, or even just some countries remain neutral (like ASEAN countries) but because of the conflict in the South China Sea, even Vietnam (communist!) has a bad image of us, Duterte wanted to expulse the American bases and get closer to China, but he made a volt face because of the conflict in the south china sea, we lose geopolitically
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I am also disappointed about the conflict with India, it opens the door to the USA to make a great anti-Chinese alliance throughout Asia (
anti-Chinese hatred in India has increased sharply).

This does not mean that we should give up our demands, but we must lower our tone, we must realize that to win the "cold war" against the USA, we need allies, nobody can win an open conflict on several fronts, and unfortunately today China has diplomatic problems on several fronts, from Japan to India, Australia, Great Britain, the USA ect ...

That's why Tsai Ing Wen has gained a lot of confidence lately, she sees anti-Chinese sentiment rising everywhere.

Time is playing in China's favor, we must be calm for the time being, we cannot win a cold war against the USA at the moment, this is stupid, especially as time is playing against the USA and playing in our favor, we need patience.

I also think as free_6ix9ine that China doesn't have a powerful soft power, China has to invest billions and billions in its soft power to target the entire world, because the united states has the power to influence the whole world through its media and it's culture (Hollywood ect)

(Sorry for my english)
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
My opinion may seem controversial, but I am worried that China is making enemies everywhere.

I think China must stop the claims (9 dash lines) in the South China Sea (for the moment), because it endangers the relations with the ASEAN countries

Same for the Senkaku/Diaoyutai Islands with Japan, we must stop poisoning our international relations for such things.

In the past we could do this because we were less on the radar of the USA (who was focused on russia and the middle east)
, but today we have to focus only on the USA, everything else is superficial, and we need allies, or even just some countries remain neutral (like ASEAN countries) but because of the conflict in the South China Sea, even Vietnam (communist!) has a bad image of us, Duterte wanted to expulse the American bases and get closer to China, but he made a volt face because of the conflict in the south china sea, we lose geopolitically
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I am also disappointed about the conflict with India, it opens the door to the USA to make a great anti-Chinese alliance throughout Asia (
anti-Chinese hatred in India has increased sharply).

This does not mean that we should give up our demands, but we must lower our tone, we must realize that to win the "cold war" against the USA, we need allies, nobody can win an open conflict on several fronts, and unfortunately today China has diplomatic problems on several fronts, from Japan to India, Australia, Great Britain, the USA ect ...

That's why Tsai Ing Wen has gained a lot of confidence lately, she sees anti-Chinese sentiment rising everywhere.

Time is playing in China's favor, we must be calm for the time being, we cannot win a cold war against the USA at the moment, this is stupid, especially as time is playing against the USA and playing in our favor, we need patience.

I also think as free_6ix9ine that China doesn't have a powerful soft power, China has to invest billions and billions in its soft power to target the entire world, because the united states has the power to influence the whole world through its media and it's culture (Hollywood ect)

(Sorry for my english)


Aaaaaaameeeeeennnnnnnnn
 
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