Hong-Kong Protests

[broadsword]

Parliament (you thought I was going to say the government, weren't you). The law would have to be reversed before HKese came to the UK. Once they're in the UK, they're there to stay.

Giving the Hong Kong people the option of settling in the UK is a good idea, obviously. Do you think the law will be passed considering many of the Conservative MPs are xenophobic?

 

[Mr T]

Giving the Hong Kong people the option of settling in the UK is a good idea, obviously. Do you think the law will be passed considering many of the Conservative MPs are xenophobic?

Perhaps you mean racist. I don't think any are xenophobic, which suggests an automatic hostility towards all non-Britons. Generally HongKongese are regarded favourably in the UK, even amongst people who wanted to leave the EU, and the same will apply to MPs, so I don't think they'd face any prejudice during a vote in Parliament due to their ethnicity.

I expect any change to the immigration rules would pass. The Opposition would definitely be for it - their basic platforms are pro-immigration. A lot of Conservative MPs were against EU Freedom of Movement, but that's largely because the UK had little control over the process. When presented with an exceptional situation where they had the power, they'd probably be highly sympathetic.

So in short, even if some prejudiced MPs objected, it's unlikely they'd have the numbers to block a change in the law.

 

[localizer]

People say the terrorists won against the US because new laws were enacted to reduce freedoms.

I think the same happened in China. Foreign influences of all kinds caused the government to enact rules (ie more stringent internet blockages) to protect peace and order.

Hongkong terrorists should be ashamed of themselves for aiding hostile foreigners and then not finishing the job.

Now they RUN like COWARDS.

They don’t give a damn about freedom and democracy. This is just another one of their assignments as US dogs.

 

[Mr T]

I think the same happened in China. Foreign influences of all kinds caused the government to enact rules (ie more stringent internet blockages) to protect peace and order.

Nonsense. The CCP put the Great Firewall up because it was scared about losing total control of news-flows to its citizens and them having the power to discuss issues via the privacy of the internet. The CCP isn't interested in fair exchange of ideas but its own supremacy and domination of China at all costs.

Foreign ideas, after all, can be good. What do Buddhism, capitalism and Communism have in common? None of them originated in China.

Now they RUN like COWARDS.

No one has run away. If anything HK protesters have said they're not looking for somewhere to move to, they want pressure put on Beijing to respect HK's autonomy and stop blocking political reform.

They don’t give a damn about freedom and democracy.

They care more about freedom and democracy than many people on this forum. After all, they're calling for universal suffrage. It's their opponents that want restrictions on elections or disenfranchising people they disagre with.

This is just another one of their assignments as US dogs.

When you blame people you disagree with as being under the control of another country you've lost the argument.

 

[QianXuesen]

Nonsense. The CCP put the Great Firewall up because it was scared about losing total control of news-flows to its citizens and them having the power to discuss issues via the privacy of the internet. The CCP isn't interested in fair exchange of ideas but its own supremacy and domination of China at all costs.

Foreign ideas, after all, can be good. What do Buddhism, capitalism and Communism have in common? None of them originated in China.



No one has run away. If anything HK protesters have said they're not looking for somewhere to move to, they want pressure put on Beijing to respect HK's autonomy and stop blocking political reform.



They care more about freedom and democracy than many people on this forum. After all, they're calling for universal suffrage. It's their opponents that want restrictions on elections or disenfranchising people they disagre with.



When you blame people you disagree with as being under the control of another country you've lost the argument.

I wonder would in reality a pro-American military or defense forum dedicated to conservative values actually be so tolerant, understanding, patient, forgiving to the point of bending over backwards as to actually allow, much less prolongly humor, someone from China, or clearly of the Chinese side, who obviously always sided with the Chinese perspective at each and every rhetorically oppurtunity just in order to provide him the platform for equal oppurtunity to make sure that all opposing sides are heard loud and clear, however counterlogic or ludicrious such positions and arguements might be?

 

[Mr T]

I wonder would in reality a pro-American military or defense forum dedicated to conservative values actually be so tolerant, understanding, patient, forgiving

I have no idea.

Also, I was under the impression that this forum was generally for non-political discussion and whilst obviously a place of interest for China-watchers, was not designed to be pro or anti-CCP, but rather a place for international discussions in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

If this is actually supposed to be a pro-CCP echo-chamber, I guess I was wrong.

 

[AndrewS]

Housing costs in the UK are still relatively high. Also, I believe there is a higher percentage of the UK workforce on the minimum wage than in Hong Kong. The minimum wage in the UK is seen more as a "reasonable" wage, whereas in HK it's more of an exploitation wage. No one could live on the HK minimum wage unless they've got accommodation provided for them, are doing multiple jobs, or have squalid living conditions.

There are 150,000 people on the Hong Kong minimum wage. You can expect them to be very interested in moving to the UK, particularly if you have entire families and groups being eligible to move.

If they were economic migrants they'd probably have a good reason to believe they'd have a better life in the UK and have jobs lined up or see them available.

Also because the UK has an ageing population, lots of young people would be incredibly good for the economy and the country. We also have shortages in some fields like nursing and caring that could be filled fairly quickly. In the more medium term there's no reason to believe young HKese could do high-skilled jobs.



If they were from Hong Kong there'd be a lot of solidarity with them. They're not going to accept 3 million, but no country is by themselves. The numbers would almost certainly be spread around.



I doubt many Hong Kongese would believe they were at a significant risk of being killed in the US. If they're choosing to leave Hong Kong, the lower murder rates there will not factor into their thinking. Unsurprisingly, murder rates are highest in poorer areas, and given time HKese would get decent jobs and not be exposed to those risks.



Sure, but over how many years? Hong Kong only shares a land border with mainland China. Emigres could travel to Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and South East Asia - maybe even Australia or New Zealand - by boat, but most would need to fly out. It would take quite some time for half a million to leave.



I'm not sure it's easy to say that HKese who can't accept the situation would leave. There are many older people who would not have the desire to leave their homes.

Also, it's impossible to say what would happen with the protests. As I pointed out, there's no reason to believe such large numbers would leave in one go unless Beijing sent in the troops and they started shooting. Assuming a more realistic scenario, the most militant protesters would probably stay on for a while, but more importantly, if Beijing or the HK establishment tried bring in even tougher laws that could trigger new protests.

Hong Kong is overcrowded, but shedding part of the population isn't a long-term solution. The issue is the lack of housing. Moreover, if as you say the people most likely to leave are young, that would lead to worse demographics in the city and a brain drain.

You suggested that "Chinese" (I assume you mean mainlanders) would be ready and willing to move to Hong Kong. I'm not sure that's the case. Most of the young mainland Chinese I've known didn't really rate Hong Kong, thanks in part to negative coverage in the Chinese media about how the city was chaotic, in contrast to the constant positive messages they get about mainland Chinese cities. Sure, sometimes you get mainland Chinese desperate to get into HK, but they're more like the pregnant mothers trying to get better healthcare and benefits/social housing. They're not eyeing up a lifetime of sacrifice and hard work.

Finally, if the plan is to replace young HKese that leave with mainland Chinese, you're going to just wipe out any gains from less demand on housing, therefore keeping Hong Kong overcrowded.

You keep talking about a worse case scenario, when you know it most likely isn't going to happen.

If China wanted to use a sledgehammer to stamp out the protests and riots, it would have sent in the Army last year when there was months of chaos in Hong Kong.

Instead, the Chinese government have used Article 18 of the Basic Law to enforce Article 23, which the Hong Kong legislature failed to pass back in 2003.

We're now at the halfway point of the 50 year lifespan of the Basic Law, so one can argue that the implementation of Article 23 is long, long overdue.

Now business in Hong Kong is publicly supporting the National Security Law, because they know Hong Kong will definitely die if there are constant protests/riots like last year.

 

[Sunbud]

Maybe time to turn this thread into a meme thread.

 

[PanAsian]

...
They care more about freedom and democracy than many people on this forum. After all, they're calling for universal suffrage. It's their opponents that want restrictions on elections or disenfranchising people they disagre with.
...

Among the many facts that you are wrong on try to at least get these few right:

Universal suffrage already exists in Hong Kong, that the protesters call for it shows their ignorance and/or misrepresentation of the facts.

Hong Kong protesters not only have not denounced but voice support for those among them who commit violence and terrorism against civilians and businesses who don't agree with them, as well as against the public at large and the authorities. The protesters/rioters/terrorists are disenfranchising others and abusing others' human rights.

 

[Dolcevita]

I have no idea.

Also, I was under the impression that this forum was generally for non-political discussion and whilst obviously a place of interest for China-watchers, was not designed to be pro or anti-CCP, but rather a place for international discussions in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

If this is actually supposed to be a pro-CCP echo-chamber, I guess I was wrong.

Oh the hypocrisy is rich on this one. Guess who here keeps talking about CCP this and CCP that.
You are the one that wants to talk about and make it about pro or anti-CCP.
If anything, I think you have a CCP complex.

You should read your post sometimes. Just saying.