Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

[ZeEa5KPul]

Did I say China should be a carbon copy of Nazi Germany?

Frankly, I don't care what you said. From your name and rhetoric here you seem to be one of those weird white supremacists with a China fetish. Whatever it is you are, it's quite pathetic and I want nothing further to do with it. Bye.

 

[sinophilia]

I advocate for reasonable Anti-CCP sentiments. I share (in part) your frustration and alarm. But there are multiple sides to this situation. In fact, the CCP might have done a lot more than what you/or me thinks.
The world of geopolitics and industrial trade is deeply interwoven and complicated. It is simply beyond our capabilities to surmise or even theorize what could be happening. Blaming the CCP is the easy way out. It's tempting to do, I agree.

I agree with this. I hold no hate towards the CCP. They are just an antiquated way of doing things and an overall hindrance to the true potential of the Chinese people.

But yes I know things are far more complex than being able to respond in a few sentences. CCP has done a lot of good, but I feel any decently state-planned shitty government could have done as well, with the Chinese people as their subjects.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Getting a little paranoid there. Are physical threats allowed on this forum?

Just telling you what would happen if you tried your little anti-government shit in China. Fair warning, pretty much no chance I'll meet you but same thing would happen to you anyway.

I don’t seek to foment discord why would I try to topple the CCP? I am pro-Chinese more than even pro my family. I wish they are massively reformed either from top down or due to discontent from the people. But as usual, Asians are happy to be quiet and obey.

Pro-Chinese? Show it, don't tell it. And don't gimme that bullshit about being pro-Chinese but anti-CCP. No such thing exists. You cut off the CCP, you de-engine an airplane. Being quiet and obeying is called discipline and working towards a goal. You know who's not good at that? Every crazy unsafe shit-hole country with a GDP less than Burger King. They don't obey nothing and they're loud as shit when they riot.

You think this is a strength because you can’t think for yourself. East Asian people beat the rest of the world in everything; intellect both verbal and spatial, work ethic, respect and decency, crime, but never the ability of thinking for oneself. This is the major flaw that has caused lack of innovation while the Europeans flourished. Such an easy thing to fix, but because people can’t think for themselves it will never allow that door to be opened. One day I hope. It is the crucible to innovation.

I can't think for myself? LOL I'm here proving you wrong over and over, aren't I? If I couldn't think for myself, I'd give you a "like" and move on. The day everyone "thinks for themselves" in China by your definition, the day China falls into chaos.

We can agree to disagree then. I think the Koreans and Japanese and people of Hong Kong and Taiwan and Singapore built themselves mostly due to their own capabilities, and yes some US support. You think it was built solely on US support. Tens of trillions of wealth creation. Just because the US supposedly, what? Gave them some magic beans? Cool. Same applies for Africa too, or is the US secretly trying to halt their growth for some nefarious reason?

No, it was certainly not completely the US; they are capable smart people, but the US gave them assistance at first and ALLOWED them to build because they fell in line with the US agenda. The US didn't fight them as enemies, because they are all too small to be rivals. The US considered China a rival the day Mao refused to bow and thus began China's harsh journey to find its potential to become the next superpower. The Koreans, Japanese, etc.. are all smart and can hold their own, but they faced nothing like what China faces in its path to growth. They are not comparable.

You’re right. US is literally incapable of installing a 5G network. Can you tell me specifically where the US lags not in IMPLEMENTATION, which is policy related, but in TECHNOLOGY? Thanks.

I can tell you they don't have it and can't make one to compete with China so all the Europeans told them, "Sorry, no other alternative to Huawei." We don't need the specifics because we have the result that it is not there plus the huge incentive for it to be there. You're welcome.

Predictable. Wasn’t the asset pricing bubble. It was “new economic treaties”. Fucking hell. You guys have identity disorder. Japan was going to have a gdp per capita 2x the US right, even though the Tokyo Palace Gardens were worth more than the entire state of California before the crash. Totally not a bubble. Just western spies or whatever bullshit.

Western spies? Your words, not mine. Common theory that the US sabotaged Japan; if you don't buy it, that's your opinion, but the stupid part would be to think that the US would actually allow any country's economy friend or foe, to overtake it. That is the point of this.

First of all, I can say my opinion. It’s not your concern if people care or don’t. The fact you think an opinion should have this prerequisite shows why East Asia was always going to start behind Europeans during the industrial revolution and even centuries before. No one can be objective. I’m way more pro-China than you, because I recognize realities that would help the country over saving face and party loyalty.

I like doing things with a point. From what I hear from you, your anti-CCP thoughts have no point. You just don't like them but won't do anything about it except bitch and moan online. That is not the reason anyone got ahead of anyone else; that is what old men do at home alone before they expire. It's quite frankly sad and disturbing that someone who claims to be "pro-China" would believe that someone who wishes to support the very successful Chinese government and put it power behind his team (and its leader) without bickering and dissent is unable to think or have an opinion. This person is expressing his opinion to you; do you not realize that? And once again, there is no such thing as pro China but anti-CCP because without the CCP, China can kiss its dreams of being a superpower goodbye for at least the better part of a century as it tries to regroup from the chaos. Saying all bad things about the force that drives and guides China and then saying you're pro-China doesn't make you pro-China just like having only sexual relationships with other men while saying you're straight doesn't make you straight.

 

[sinophilia]

Frankly, I don't care what you said. From your name and rhetoric here you seem to be one of those weird white supremacists with a China fetish. Whatever it is you are, it's quite pathetic and I want nothing further to do with it. Bye.

Out of curiosity are you White? Not many Chinese queef incessantly about racism. Hence the reason they are surviving while large parts of the US are no-go warzones.

 

[Xizor]

CCP has done a lot of good, but I feel any decently state-planned shitty government could have done as well, with the Chinese people as their subjects.

This thinking is actually poisonous /venomous.
Decoupling the CCP from the Chinese people actually plays into the agenda of foreign nation/people/entities to see the fall of a unified and powerful China.
Seeing the relationship between the Chinese people and the CCP through the prism of a "master - slave" relationship is actually harmful. The CCP is an extension of the Chinese people. The CCP members are Chinese peoples. Unless you can prove that CCP is governed by nepotism and clans men /tribal qualities - CCP should be viewed as Chinese people's government.

 

[sinophilia]

This thinking is actually poisonous /venomous.
Decoupling the CCP from the Chinese people actually plays into the agenda of foreign nation/people/entities to see the fall of a unified and powerful China.
Seeing the relationship between the Chinese people and the CCP through the prism of a "master - slave" relationship is actually harmful. The CCP is an extension of the Chinese people. The CCP members are Chinese peoples. Unless you can prove that CCP is governed by nepotism and clans men /tribal qualities - CCP should be viewed as Chinese people's government.

No doubt, it is China's government, and has support of the great majority of the people. That's not what I am saying, nor do I advocate instability. I'd rather have Mao than what happened the 200 years before him.

Nonetheless, a government is not a people. I don't treat CCP as some kind of monarchy, the embodiment of Chinese people. If they are not leading the country ideally, they should be replaced. Not violently and not with serious instability. Just by people making it known they want more than what is being allowed. Alas, people don't care and are content with their current situation.

 

[Weaasel]

I don't think making EUV lithography is harder than making high end super computer or high end satellite (like DH-5) or ICBM or nuke warhead or J-20 or Type 052/55, Type 095/096, etc, etc

It is just a matter of priority and China, including USA, Japan, SK, etc decided just to buy it from ASML. Give China or USA or Japan 5 years, they would be able to come up similar specs and it would be the end of ASML

Is China still following its long shown to be terrible to its national interest policy of relying on foreign suppliers for tech, instead of ensuring that it has the capability of producing EACH AND EVERY TYPE OF TECH WITHOUT EXCEPTION?

China should be under no illusions that the United States will go at very great and probably all lengths and measures to ensure that foreign countries do not supply China will the type of tech that the United States does not want China to possess. Every foreign country with the exception of Russia is vulnerable to US pressure. They will forego their own economic gains for the appeasement of US desire to make China technologically subservient to it.


Accordingly China should be resolute and thoroughly unwavering in implementing Made in China 2025 to the hilt. From toothpicks, and matches, and nails all the way through the most potent UV lithographic equipment for semiconductor manufacturing and single crystal aerojet engines, China must possess the indigenous capability of producing state of the art tech.

 

[Weaasel]

Wow disgusting

100% Expected.

The Americans want thorough technological subjugation of China and they are STEADFAST in their efforts to dictate what other countries should produce and not produce and what they should export and not export and who they should trade and not trade with.

 

[Weaasel]

Of course not. The CCP is pathetic. Sure, it cares about China and about China prospering, but ONLY when its 100% sure that the route they are going to take wont so much as increase by 0.1% the chance of them losing power.

This is not a good government honestly. People like to talk about how good it is because of all 'its' achievements. LOL. The achievements would have happened anyway (and probably been even more breathtaking) if not for this government.

I'm not talking about the lack of democracy, but moreso the desperate and fearful way the CCP is latching onto power. Too scared to do anything that raises eyebrows.

Too scared to take risk.

Those developments would have happened anyway? Are you so sure about that? If developments happen anyway, why has India not seen the extent of development that China has so far?

Eventually it probably will, but it will take a considerably longer time than it took for China. Meaning that your broad proclamation is very flawed. The socio economic and technological developments achieved within China under the CPC might have occurred under another government, but they might not have happened as quickly as they have, contrary to your assertion. There is no way that the CPC cannot be divorced from the unprecedented scale in human history of developments that have happened in China. Concurrently, it cannot be absolved of the problems of Chinese society during the same period.

 

[sinophilia]

Those developments would have happened anyway? Are you so sure about that? If developments happen anyway, why has India not seen the extent of development that China has so far?

Eventually it probably will, but it will take a considerably longer time than it took for China. Meaning that your broad proclamation is very flawed. The socio economic and technological developments achieved within China under the CPC might have occurred under another government, but they might not have happened as quickly as they have, contrary to your assertion. There is no way that the CPC cannot be divorced from the unprecedented scale in human history of developments that have happened in China. Concurrently, it cannot be absolved of the problems of Chinese society during the same period.

India will never see the scale of level of development of China, doesn’t mater if it’s Western countries helping it or if the CPC managed it or not. Won’t happen.