J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Biscuits]

Ppl are barely shooting down helicopters with guns, how would it be an effective anti F-22 weapon?

If a missile less J-20 and missile less F-22 came face to face, both would just turn and leave for refills since they’re effectively useless.

2 short range missiles is more than enough for what it is supposed to do in one run. Assuming it intercepts a F-22 formation and brings down 2 with it’s missiles, it’s already time to go home, not follow the fully armed remaining ones and try to gun them down, that would be suicide.

 

[siegecrossbow]

In the world of 5th gen vs 5th gens, detection ranges and BVRAAM missile kill probabilities will both plummet, perhaps to the point where the majority of kills end up coming in WVR.

Despite recent rumours, we only have evidence of 2 IRAAMs on the J20, and the same for F22s.

Having a gun gives you that much more flexibility and combat staying power. When faced with missile-less Raptors, a J20 would have to bug out after it expended it’s missiles as well, whereas with guns, they can stay on station to fight on equal footing.

Considering the J20 would have had the F22 firmly in mind during its design phase, it’s hard to credit it not having a gun, or at least the provision to quickly add one.

Modern fighter mounted guns expend their ammunition within a span of seconds. It is functionally similar to infantry combat knife. Is it good to have as a last minute resort? Definitely. Is it necessary and does it justify the extra weight when the J-20 is still using underpowered engines? Probably not.

 

[Xizor]

If they can add a concealed refuel probe, i don't think they'd face any hindrance (technological) to bury a Gun within the body of the J-20.So, it has to be space constraints that is limiting them.
Since, we can generally agree that we haven't been able to count J-20s, don't know about the production rates or even what specific upgrades and improvements are made for each new example - How can we dismiss/affirm the notion of J-20 NOT having a Gun ?
If J-20 does indeed turn out to be lacking a gun - then it certainly is at a disadvantage over F-22. Having something is better than nothing.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

@plawolf is right on this.
Because fifth generation aircraft have been designed for absolutely minimal RCS engagement between two would likely happen in visual range or at very close to visual range.
This is where things start changing. BVR missiles can be used as a fall back once IR guided missiles have been spent true however there is still no guarantee of lock on able to secure even at close ranges. A gun system is a absolute fall back.
As to claims of Guns being of no use in modern fighting consider the following.
1) How rare is air to air combat? The fact is very.
2) has fifth gen on fifth gen combat in anger happened? No.
3) IR guided missiles can be spoofed.
In fact we saw that happen very publicly. Flares are the simple. Emerging IRDCM will make it more difficult.
4)Radar guidance is more reliable, but RCS reduction is targeted vs the very radars AESA, PESA X Band found in fighters and missiles. Because of the reduced RCS chaff potentially becomes more effective. Meaning Radar guided missiles range is more a factor vs older 4th and 4.5 gen fighters.
5)Gun systems do uses a radar range finding but with proper training a pilot can bypass it.

As yet J20 lacks a gun system. It may be that this is only for early blocks. Longer term J20 is still evolving. And Gun systems can be added to later blocks as they emerge. Near term The USAF is the only fully operational fifth gen fleet. J20 is still very early but still a little ahead of any other Fifth gen fleet delivery in the Asian region which is F35.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

If they can add a concealed refuel probe, i don't think they'd face any hindrance (technological) to bury a Gun within the body of the J-20.So, it has to be space constraints that is limiting them.
Since, we can generally agree that we haven't been able to count J-20s, don't know about the production rates or even what specific upgrades and improvements are made for each new example - How can we dismiss/affirm the notion of J-20 NOT having a Gun ?
If J-20 does indeed turn out to be lacking a gun - then it certainly is at a disadvantage over F-22. Having something is better than nothing.

they may be able to build one on but critical is having a port to fire it out of. No port has appeared yet.

 

[KFX]

they may be able to build one on but critical is having a port to fire it out of. No port has appeared yet.

To @seigecrossbow point earlier, an Indian Tejas pilot compared the gun to the bayonet that infantry guys still carry. Useful, but marginally.

Still, something like the J-20 needs a gun even if the ammunition capacity is low, only a few hundred rounds, as nothing like a gun to fire warning shots near errant airliners and the like. And, in extremis, the J-20 could at some future point be pressed to strafe some cheap ass thing like a small boat or a crappy $1,000 truck - a target where a missile is simply too expensive. Old school, for sure, but weapons end up being used for contingencies for which they were not designed.

As for F-22 vs. J-20: by the time these guys expend most of their missiles they'll be looking to bug out, gun or no gun.

 

[ougoah]

Gun would still be better than no gun even given the weight costs. A gun with two hundred rounds won't weigh that much and can be removed for missions where J-20 needs to perform air to air missions without getting WVR. Having a gun just makes the fighter a bit more versatile if it needs to abuse its position and shoot at ground or sea targets without risking itself.

For air to air, it remains a next to pointless addition. So ideally it has the room for the gun and can be attached or removed depending on mission. Since J-20 is almost entirely designed for air to air, it's entirely possible that the designers just ignored the gun altogether.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

As for F-22 vs. J-20: by the time these guys expend most of their missiles they'll be looking to bug out, gun or no gun

This is assuming that the gun is the fall back. Only used after firing everything else.
Vs. a fourth gen that’s logical as you can take targets at longer ranges.
With VLO Stealth though it becomes more a fight resembling world war 2 dog fights. Where instead of finding the enemy at hundreds of miles it’s back to dozens. As such it’s possible to have a situation where they only find the enemy when the jet pops up in front of them. The gun system offers a very close attack option and less increase in RCS vs the missile option.
It’s a fall back still but an option.

 

[Jura The idiot]

wow the original spelling

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J-20, qui vole rarement sans sa lentille de Lüneburg.

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[Biscuits]

This is assuming that the gun is the fall back. Only used after firing everything else.
Vs. a fourth gen that’s logical as you can take targets at longer ranges.
With VLO Stealth though it becomes more a fight resembling world war 2 dog fights. Where instead of finding the enemy at hundreds of miles it’s back to dozens. As such it’s possible to have a situation where they only find the enemy when the jet pops up in front of them. The gun system offers a very close attack option and less increase in RCS vs the missile option.
It’s a fall back still but an option.

Short range missiles still out range guns by a lot. And it isn’t easy to hit a small, extremely fast target with a gun that can only fire for a few bursts.

Since the designers opted to not have a gun, and China has enough 5th gen to test as many 5th gen vs 5th gen battles as it wants, it’s clear that guns are not more useful in those battles than in 4th gen vs 4th gen battles.

The point about a gun being used to deal with low value targets that don’t warrant a missile is valid, but the J-20 isn’t specialized for those encounters. From the start, it has always been a very (almost exclusively) air superiority focused fighter.