US F/A-XX and F-X 6th Gen Aircraft News Thread

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Gentlemen,

I actually agree with you stealth is necessary: I even said the scenario I described works even better with stealth.

However, frankly, my opinion and your opinion amounts to a hill of beans. :)

This isn't the first time the US Navy has stated they are not interested in a high end stealth fighter for their next gen aircraft. This has just happened and even back a couple years ago: an admiral stated that stealth was pretty pointless if you could detect the IR from the airstream over an airframe. I wish could find the cite for that, but my google-fu is failing me. Finally, look at the budget numbers. The USN's next gen fighter costs are significantly lower than the USAF. You can't do that if you're pursuing the bleeding edge of tech.

US Air Force:

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US Navy:

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The US Navy's costs to this point have been less than $50M and their AOA will be done this summer:

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The USAF will have spent nearly a billion dollars up to this point and next year will spend as much again. The total for the next five years for the US Navy will be less than $900M.

That strikes me as a radically different capability set.

But then again, that's just my opinion.

As for UCAVs, there's plenty out there to have a back and forth on, but the public programs are wildly suggestive when taken with the comments of various CEOs about expected orders and known missions by Avengers.

But then again, that too could be interpreted as my opinion.

Seems I need to look into the exchange rate for beans to money.

A bit more seriously, we are just going to have to wait and see.

Thank you Mr. Anzha for your thoughted and very nice response, that was CNO Richardson, he gone! yep, the Navy is very gun shy, they probably wouldn't even be rolling the F-35C out if they didn't feel lots of pressure from above, and below... they love the F-18, they don't want to get into the high end F-35 maintenance world, its very expensive as you noted, and there is a vastly diminishing pool of talent for maintainers....

First you've got to build a pool, then you've got to get them to "jump in", I'm extremely hopeful that the Navy will "see" the absolute necessity of "upping their game", but I remind you it was Army Air Corp B-25's that Dolittle's Raider's flew off the Hornet, now that my friend is "projecting airpower"....

The 4 Gen is game over when it comes to serious business downtown, only 5 gen currently offers you a ride in, annnnd a ride back...

The most important tidbit here is that politicians don't need "choices", they need "direction"!

and thank indeed for your opinion, you're at the top of the class, and I'm very grateful that you spend your time and considerable talent here, thanks Bub!
 

Brumby

Major
Gentlemen,

I actually agree with you stealth is necessary: I even said the scenario I described works even better with stealth.

However, frankly, my opinion and your opinion amounts to a hill of beans. :)

This isn't the first time the US Navy has stated they are not interested in a high end stealth fighter for their next gen aircraft. This has just happened and even back a couple years ago: an admiral stated that stealth was pretty pointless if you could detect the IR from the airstream over an airframe. I wish could find the cite for that, but my google-fu is failing me. Finally, look at the budget numbers. The USN's next gen fighter costs are significantly lower than the USAF. You can't do that if you're pursuing the bleeding edge of tech.

US Air Force:

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US Navy:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The US Navy's costs to this point have been less than $50M and their AOA will be done this summer:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The USAF will have spent nearly a billion dollars up to this point and next year will spend as much again. The total for the next five years for the US Navy will be less than $900M.

That strikes me as a radically different capability set.

But then again, that's just my opinion.
The different funding levels to-date and future periods between the services do not necessarily project what type of technology they are pursuing relative to a F-X/FA-XX. I don't think it is sound to argue that the level of intended technology pursuance is necessarily connected to present funding. Over the years, there had been various interest pertaining to spectrum domination; all aspect stealth; thermal management; lasers; adaptive engines and UAS teaming. Until the AOA is released, we just do not know.

As for UCAVs, there's plenty out there to have a back and forth on, but the public programs are wildly suggestive when taken with the comments of various CEOs about expected orders and known missions by Avengers.

But then again, that too could be interpreted as my opinion.

Seems I need to look into the exchange rate for beans to money.

A bit more seriously, we are just going to have to wait and see.
I agree that we have to wait at least until the AOA is released.
 

anzha

Senior Member
Registered Member
The different funding levels to-date and future periods between the services do not necessarily project what type of technology they are pursuing relative to a F-X/FA-XX. I don't think it is sound to argue that the level of intended technology pursuance is necessarily connected to present funding.

I have to strongly disagree with this. Both "fighters" are supposed to be IOCing around 2030. If the navy is not willing to spend the money, they are not going to get the same capabilities. This is doubly so since a carrier based aircraft is a tougher problem, physically, and more money must be spent on that unlike a land based aircraft. After all, we used to say, money walks and bullshit talks.

We will await the AOA. if it's declassified.
 
... This has just happened and even back a couple years ago: an admiral stated that stealth was pretty pointless if you could detect the IR from the airstream over an airframe. I wish could find the cite for that, but ...
... I was intrigued; did you perhaps mean 2012
and
Top U.S. admiral questions need for stealth technology like that used in F-35
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?


sorry if you didn't (this link leads to the USNI Proceedings which I can't access)

anyway it's interesting the USN didn't get rid of the F-35C after all this
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
... I was intrigued; did you perhaps mean 2012
and
Top U.S. admiral questions need for stealth technology like that used in F-35
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

?


sorry if you didn't (this link leads to the USNI Proceedings which I can't access)

anyway it's interesting the USN didn't get rid of the F-35C after all this

I've told you there is an underlying culture against 5 Gen aircraft, and a stem of thought against L/O... this thinking is deeply rooted among many in the Navy and is the direct causative factor in "slo-rolling" the F-35C.

If the Marines weren't leading the charge on the B model it would be in the same shape, but thankfully the Marines see the big picture in 5 Gen, they are not distracted with the 1000 other things the Navy has to fold into their equation..

Navy=Ships, Marines=Airplanes, its really as simple as that.....

So a 5 gen aircraft is a bunch of money, a bunch, maintaining it is a 3 ring circus, all worth it, but hard to wrap your mind around it when you have a Navy to keep afloat... just saying....
 
Last edited:

anzha

Senior Member
Registered Member
... I was intrigued; did you perhaps mean 2012

anyway it's interesting the USN didn't get rid of the F-35C after all this

There was another more recent commentary along those lines, too. I thought it was around 2016.

As AFB has noted, the Navy has been less than happy with the idea of 5th gen aircraft for a while, at least since the start of the F-35 program. They seemed to be fine with the idea back with the A-12 and AF-X days, but when forced to use the F-35...well...

When combined with the reaction to UCLASS and other unmanned platforms on the carrier deck, it feels like the airdales have developed a very powerful conservatism. Which is disappointing and probably dangerous.

We'll see.
 
... This has just happened and even back a couple years ago: an admiral stated that stealth was pretty pointless if you could detect the IR from the airstream over an airframe. I wish could find the cite for that, but ...
I trust you meant

"... Let's face it, if something moves fast through the air, disrupts molecules and puts out heat — I don't care how cool the engine can be, it's going to be detectable. You get my point."

then-CNO inside
Analysts: Navy brass view F-35C's stealth as overrated
February 9, 2015
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
even back a couple years ago: an admiral stated that stealth was pretty pointless if you could detect the IR from the airstream over an airframe
I trust you meant

"... Let's face it, if something moves fast through the air, disrupts molecules and puts out heat — I don't care how cool the engine can be, it's going to be detectable. You get my point."

then-CNO inside
Analysts: Navy brass view F-35C's stealth as overrated
February 9, 2015
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that is undeniable however they ability to detect such has limits based on atmospheric conditions, orientation, relative altitudes, humidity and more.
It maybe detectable but does it get detected?
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I trust you meant

"... Let's face it, if something moves fast through the air, disrupts molecules and puts out heat — I don't care how cool the engine can be, it's going to be detectable. You get my point."

then-CNO inside
Analysts: Navy brass view F-35C's stealth as overrated
February 9, 2015
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IRST has a much shorter range and limited field of view compared to a radar and detecting an IR signal doesn't necessarily mean you can track or engage it.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Range is still the biggest issue field of view is starting to shift. F35 for sure has a EODAS and Raptors And J20 have potential for them. These are IR spectrum sensors placed around the fuselage offering 360• IRST coverage via the helmets display.
 
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