J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Totoro]

It is the same with the J-16's radar. However, if you go through the bagu articles (closest things to official confirmation)

What are these Bagu articles you mention? Is that a person? A big shrimp? Or a publication?

If China is at the point where it can confidently export AESA radars for a light fighter like JF17, don't you think that it has the capacity to do so for its top of the line fighters?

I personally think the JF17 export radar being AESA is an indication of an extremely likely AESA radar in J20, J16, J10C etc. That's got nothing to do with me trying to get something even more palpable as a source.

Actually I remembered a semi confirmation from Zhuhai 2018. When advertising the triple array AESA for JF-17, the spokesperson claimed that a similar product was used on J-20 and J-16. This was misquoted by Jane's defense as the J-20 using KLJ-7A radar or will consider KLJ-7A or something like that.

That sounds interesting. Is there a video or audio recording of the spokesperson saying that? Or is there a publication which cites the event and spokesperson?

 

[siegecrossbow]

What are these Bagu articles you mention? Is that a person? A big shrimp? Or a publication?


I personally think the JF17 export radar being AESA is an indication of an extremely likely AESA radar in J20, J16, J10C etc. That's got nothing to do with me trying to get something even more palpable as a source.



That sounds interesting. Is there a video or audio recording of the spokesperson saying that? Or is there a publication which cites the event and spokesperson?

It was an interview with Global Times. The same spokesperson also interviewed with Jane's but the message got garbled.

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[Totoro]

Sadly, I get nothing when i google Bagu and J-16 together.
Nor do I get anything on Global Times website when I search for J-20, AESA, JF-17 or KLJ-7A.

 

[Brumby]

1)That credibility lays in the methods and its assumptions, not in the cloak of status or authority.

You have no idea how Aviation week arrived at their estimate and yet somehow their methods and assumptions are inferior to the shrimps. You are simply relying on guesswork but in the same sentience you are arguing your source is somehow superior. In logic, this is known as brute force reasoning.

2) I do not think Aviationweek's reputation on Chinese aerospace matters is really that impressive. Places like this forum have beaten or superseded publications like Aviationweek on most matters of Chinese aerospace for at least the last two decades.

You are entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it a fact.

The credibility of that report was debated pretty extensively on this forum already. I don't really see a point re-litigating it. Either you believe all the sources we have on hand from Chinese media, leaks, and big shrimps that China has AESAs in their fighters, or you don't.

The point is whether what is on board is still developmental or production. The latter mean there is a stable design, the former mean it is still work in progress.

By this standard of evidence we don't really know if the F-22 or F-35 have AESAs.

There are plenty of external parties that have access to US made AESA radar including what is installed in the F-35 There is no external corroboration of what is installed in Chinese planes. That is hardly the same standard of evidence.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Sadly, I get nothing when i google Bagu and J-16 together.
Nor do I get anything on Global Times website when I search for J-20, AESA, JF-17 or KLJ-7A.

I'll do some digging on baidu.

I've misremembered for the three-phase array interview. It was an interview by a Chinese military magazine at Zhuhai 2018. I found the link though.

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Underlined portion states that J-20 and J-16 employs the three-phase array radar.

 

[latenlazy]

Sadly, I get nothing when i google Bagu and J-16 together.
Nor do I get anything on Global Times website when I search for J-20, AESA, JF-17 or KLJ-7A.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ch...j-series-and-others.t6755/page-17#post-488489

Found the source we had on the J-20 using tiled AESAs. However, at the time we deemed the source as not authoritative.

If our concern is any comment about *any* fighter mounted AESAs though, I did manage to find two sources, both from Yankeesama, one from a few months ago and one from 2016 make mention of the J-16’s AESA directly. Also found a source in the radar thread from this March that was an interview with someone from the 14th institute talking about China’s 3.5 and 4th gen AESAs.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinese-purchase-of-su-35.t5915/page-214#post-430681
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinese-purchase-of-su-35.t5915/page-214#post-430681
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ch...j-series-and-others.t6755/page-18#post-502244

Also, I'm clearly going senile, because the interviews and media junkets I thought we had gotten after Zhuhai in 2016 actually only started around the summer of 2017. I might do some more digging later just to see if I can find any credible media comments that definitively say the J-20 uses AESA, but fwiw this is probably a really silly exercise at this point...

 

[latenlazy]

You have no idea how Aviation week arrived at their estimate and yet somehow their methods and assumptions are inferior to the shrimps. You are simply relying on guesswork but in the same sentience you are arguing your source is somehow superior. In logic, this is known as brute force reasoning.

You’re right. I have no idea how they arrived at their estimate. That’s why I should implicitly trust it right?

I did not argue that my source on the J-20’s weight is somehow superior. What I said was we’ve already retread this argument about estimating the J-20’s weight several times now. Whatever Aviationweek did to get their estimates probably. Before you accuse me of brute force reasoning please actually bother to read what I say instead of put words in my mouth....

You are entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it a fact.

We have for years now been getting the scoop on new developments in Chinese military tech before Aviationweek. That’s not an opinion. That’s a fact.

The point is whether what is on board is still developmental or production. The latter mean there is a stable design, the former mean it is still work in progress.

That is not what the source you’re citing was saying

There are plenty of external parties that have access to US made AESA radar including what is installed in the F-35 There is no external corroboration of what is installed in Chinese planes. That is hardly the same standard of evidence.

By your own bar for evidence that’s all testimonial and hearsay, no better than what we’re getting from our Chinese sources.

 

[latenlazy]

I did not argue that my source on the J-20’s weight is somehow superior. What I said was we’ve already retread this argument about estimating the J-20’s weight several times now. Whatever Aviationweek did to get their estimates probably. Before you accuse me of brute force reasoning please actually bother to read what I say instead of put words in my mouth....

Need to follow up on this bit because for whatever reason edits I made before posting didn't get preserved. What this section should say is

I did not argue that my source on the J-20’s weight is somehow superior. What I said was we’ve already retread this argument about estimating the J-20’s weight several times now. To quote myself:

"Aviationweek has no more clue about its weight than the rest of us do."
"Aviationweek isn’t liable to do any better or worse than what anyone else here has tried."

Before you accuse me of brute force reasoning please actually bother to read what I say instead of putting words in my mouth....

 

[Totoro]

I've misremembered for the three-phase array interview. It was an interview by a Chinese military magazine at Zhuhai 2018. I found the link though.

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Underlined portion states that J-20 and J-16 employs the three-phase array radar.

Thanks. I do wish I could read Chinese myself. I tried with optical character recognition and then google translate, and the bit about J-20 and J-16 isn't very clear after so much processing. I shall be quoting your translation then, if I ever need to use that text anywhere.

Why the difference in translation though. You say "three-phase array" while the google translate of the forum you linked has the guy who translated it say "three sided wide angle phased array"

Does three sided refer to additional array on the cheeks? Or is more like a mistranslation of a 3D radar?
And when you say "three-phase" what does that mean? Which phases are those?

Also found a source in the radar thread from this March that was an interview with someone from the 14th institute talking about China’s 3.5 and 4th gen AESAs.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ch...j-series-and-others.t6755/page-18#post-502244

Thanks, that's also a worthwhile resource, given the interview is with the director of 14th institute.


So, if we are to aggregate all the indications so far, we have these:

1. Interview with a 14th institute spokesperson at Zhuhai 2018 saying "J-20 and J-16 use some kind of a phased array radar"
2. Interview with director of 14th institute saying "our airborne radar is completely comparable to the F-35's APG-81 radar and the F-22's APG-77 radar" though he doesn't go into details, whether he's talking about radars on actual PLAAF planes or whether he's talking about 14th institute's radars in some stage of development. Also, "completely comparable" is a rather vague statement, but it does give credence he's talking about active phased array.
3. Export geared model of AESA radar is marketed for JF17 at Zhuhai 2018.
4. Two different phased array designs seen on J10B and J10C, via imagery. While the first one does resemble what Russians tried with their PESA technology, the latter one looks different, and is somewhat closer looking to the US AESA radars. Though of course, superficial visual similarities don't have to be conclusive.
5. I also remember there were some research papers on use of AESA radars for J10 radar, though I don't remember the details nor can I find those papers.
6. Myriad of larger AESA radars in use on other platforms for some years now might also be somewhat indicative of the fighter based AESA radar presence in J-20 and J-16.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Thanks. I do wish I could read Chinese myself. I tried with optical character recognition and then google translate, and the bit about J-20 and J-16 isn't very clear after so much processing. I shall be quoting your translation then, if I ever need to use that text anywhere.

Why the difference in translation though. You say "three-phase array" while the google translate of the forum you linked has the guy who translated it say "three sided wide angle phased array"

Does three sided refer to additional array on the cheeks? Or is more like a mistranslation of a 3D radar?
And when you say "three-phase" what does that mean? Which phases are those?





Thanks, that's also a worthwhile resource, given the interview is with the director of 14th institute.


So, if we are to aggregate all the indications so far, we have these:

1. Interview with a 14th institute spokesperson at Zhuhai 2018 saying "J-20 and J-16 use some kind of a phased array radar"
2. Interview with director of 14th institute saying "our airborne radar is completely comparable to the F-35's APG-81 radar and the F-22's APG-77 radar" though he doesn't go into details, whether he's talking about radars on actual PLAAF planes or whether he's talking about 14th institute's radars in some stage of development. Also, "completely comparable" is a rather vague statement, but it does give credence he's talking about active phased array.
3. Export geared model of AESA radar is marketed for JF17 at Zhuhai 2018.
4. Two different phased array designs seen on J10B and J10C, via imagery. While the first one does resemble what Russians tried with their PESA technology, the latter one looks different, and is somewhat closer looking to the US AESA radars. Though of course, superficial visual similarities don't have to be conclusive.
5. I also remember there were some research papers on use of AESA radars for J10 radar, though I don't remember the details nor can I find those papers.
6. Myriad of larger AESA radars in use on other platforms for some years now might also be somewhat indicative of the fighter based AESA radar presence in J-20 and J-16.

Hi totoro,

The other translation is more technical but is a bit of a mouthful. I went with an easier translation.

There is debate on Chinese forums regarding whether the radar in question has side arrays or can turn sideways like CAPTOR. I personally think that it is the former but I don’t have enough evidence to confirm it.