Is the US shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's politics, security, and economics.
China was smart to block google and US social media which can be sources for stirring social unrest. Especially when there's information overload and the average human is dumb as a brick.
Can't deny that without this step, there wouldn't be the Tencent/Baidu of today.

Google wasn't blocked. Remember that it was Google that decided to leave China.

On Facebook, they were banned because they wouldn't release communications records in the aftermath of the Urumqi city riots in 2009.

I reckon Tencent would have still won out in China against Facebook, as they were first to pivot from Facebook/QQ to mobile with Weixin.
On Baidu versus Google, it was more evenly balanced. Baidu was still the dominant incumbent at the time, although Google had made significant inroads.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
A BT representative said that at a Huawei event, so there was room for flattery or exaggeration.


The consensus among whom?

5G rollout is supposed to happen next year in the US.


I doubt any of the bullet point are true. Maybe you can provide sources.

Presently, American Internet companies are also dominant in most countries outside their home market.

On Huawei 5G, you can't get any more authoritative than Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. This is where the global telecoms industry gathers and votes.

Awards highlight Huawei's high profile at Mobile World Congress
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You're woefully ignorant about what is happening in China. So here you go


China mobile payments dwarf those in US as fintech booms, research shows
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Didi Chuxing took on Uber and won. Now it's taking on the world

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China is by far the
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e-commerce market in the world, making it a battleground for companies racing to establish global empires. Chinese consumers spent $1.1 trillion on online retail channels last year, 32 percent more than 2016 and more than double the U.S. figure

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Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
On Huawei 5G, you can't get any more authoritative than Mobile World Congress in Barcelona. This is where the global telecoms industry gathers and votes.
I'm not seeing a consensus that they're at least a year ahead of everyone else. The reality is that a number of countries will be introducing 5G over the coming years, including those that have banned Huawei. Where they're not banned, they don't dominate the market in a way that would suggest they're clearly the best or only option.


You're woefully ignorant about what is happening in China. So here you go
If you say so.

The ft.com article is paywalled; as for the other two, I have reasons to doubt their figures. For example, the claim that Didi's 25 million rides per day are roughly twice as many as the rest combined is belied by Uber's
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15 million trips per day. Adding the other apps, there's no way that Didi's number can be double their total.

I mantain the view that excluding Huawei will not hurt American business, as it won't delay 5G deployment. It's true that China has a larger domestic market (by user/consumer number, if not by value), but American Internet companies have a massive advantage in the rest of the world, where Chinese competitors are almost nonexistent, and a notable technological advantage.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
However, there are factions in the US, and maybe around the world, that see these global technologies that tie our world increasingly together, as tools serving the agenda of globalists and globalism. For them, they would rather shoot the foot off than see this world happen.
I don't see this as a matter of factions or parties in any way, unless you consider the CIA as a "faction". The CIA is the core of the American state, or at least it's most significant component.

As I see it, this is all a matter of surveillance "spheres of influence". They provide ZERO evidence when they accuse Huawei or ZTE of spying because they have none. But they know, from their own experience, that it's possible (I assume you remember the revelations of Mr. Snowden). And they know they have Intel, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Twitter, and possibly Nokia-Siemens or Ericsson on their side too. These Chinese companies break this monopoly on the international level (the BAT trio break it within China).

Aside from *potential* Chinese spying, Huawei and others also make American, or "Five Eyes" surveillance more difficult, because they need the cooperation of these companies, and inevitably China can find out what they're up to. 5G is supposed to be more secure than previous generations, which only complicates things.

Let me add another thing too if the EU reacts to Huawei paranoia. They can risk a tit for tat response. Right now, Nokia Siemens and Ericsson are allowed to bid and even win a fraction of the Chinese telecom market. They can lose that fraction and get kicked out of the country altogether. And that is just the beginning.
Well, alliance or no alliance, countries like France or Germany generally have more to fear from American surveillance, basically, because this is currently their overlord within this alliance. China is far. Furthermore, this surveillance is proven and admitted, whereas Huawei's shenanigans are only hypothetical. When it comes to countries like Spain, Italy, Greece, Hungary or Poland, they may fear surveillance from Germany most!

Anyway, this is why the propaganda about the Huawei emanates from Washington, and only recently, from the Five Eyes "intelligence" alliance.

There is great irony in the news and the timing of the
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that follows. Note that this is evidently coordinated by the "Five Eyes".
Big Brother Australia cracks open encrypted messaging
A new law will require tech firms to give security agencies access to their encrypted data, a provision experts expect other Western nations to soon replicate

Cryptology experts fear that contentious Australian laws that require tech firms to give security agencies access to encrypted data could be exploited by the same terrorists and criminals they are supposed to entrap.

Passed by federal parliament Thursday, the Assistance and Access Bill is likely to be copied in some form by other Western countries as part of an effort to redefine attitudes to the regulation of online communications.

Attorneys-general from the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand laid down the new parameters during talks on Queensland’s Gold Coast in September that issued three documents, including a communique that said vendors had a “mutual responsibility” to help in law enforcement.

“Should governments continue to encounter impediments to lawful access to information necessary to aid the protection of the citizens of our countries, we may pursue technological, enforcement, legislative, or other measures to achieve lawful access solutions,” the document warned.

It also “reiterated the importance of industry investment in human and automated detection capabilities, underscoring the need for major companies to set industry standards and to help smaller companies deploy these capabilities [and] for increased efforts to counter foreign interference and disinformation conducted via online platforms.”

These same five countries comprise the so-called “Five Eyes” partnership that shares signals intelligence, so there is an obvious security aspect to the regulatory crackdown. The laws are intended to give police “back door” access to encrypted communications used by terrorists and criminals.

Technology-Signal-Messaging-App-Encryption-Youtube.jpg

Image of the encrypted messaging App Signal. Photo: Youtube
This would likely involve the installation of a screen-capturing application downloaded onto a suspect’s mobile phone, or software allowing police to track suspects through the GPS facilities already on their phone.

Australian Attorney General Christian Porter said security agencies would mostly be targeting messaging systems like WhatsApp, Wickr, Signal and Telegram.

“They are the stock-in-trade of drug dealers and drug importers, and so we need to be able to deal with that fact,” Porter argued. Individuals or firms that fail to hand over data could face fines of up to US$7.3 million.

But the industry sees only an unwanted intrusion that could backfire.

“If there’s a back door, then it’s not only the good people that can use it,” Michail Maniatakos of New York University’s Center for Cybersecurity told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. “There’s no guarantee this back door won’t be abused by the people you want to protect [yourself] from.”

About 50% of messages sent by companies and individuals in Australia on applications like WhatsApp are encrypted, so a lapse by security agencies could have commercial ramifications. Then there is the privacy angle that will create an ethical dilemma for firms forced to comply with the laws.
2018-03-29T164047Z_659227997_RC1E9D97F360_RTRMADP_3_BOSNIA-WHATSAPP-e1542711090943.jpg

Silhouettes of mobile users next to a screen projection of the WhatsApp logo. Photo: Reuters/Dado Ruvic
Multinational technology firms may pack up and leave Australia rather than be compelled to install spyware on their networks and devices, the Communications Alliance warned before the regulations were approved. Its members include Apple, Nokia, Google, Inmarsat, Optus and Huawei.

Alliance chief executive John Stanton said the laws would be a “threat to the cybersecurity of all Australians” because of the lack of oversight and obsessive secrecy that could effectively leave companies in the dark.

“It’s possible, for example, that an engineer in a telecommunications company could be ordered to alter the network or services to create vulnerabilities or backdoors and not be able to tell senior management about that,” Stanton said.

“Similarly, device manufacturers could be ordered to install spyware onto devices they’re selling into Australia and not be allowed to tell the end users, or the companies selling those devices, that they had also been compromised.

“It’s very hard to counter potential threats if you’re prevented from knowing that they’ve even been installed to your services or products. It leaves the companies in quite an invidious situation,” he said.

iStock-518799872.jpg

A security camera on an office building. Photo: iStock
The opposition Labor Party, expected to win a general election around May next year, pushed through an amendment that allows tech firms to challenge orders to provide access if they believe it will create a “systemic” weakness in their products, but does not say how this would be defined.

An appeal by tech companies would be heard by a panel of two people — an “expert in the area” and a retired federal or Supreme Court judge. But the government and company would have to agree on who they were.

Labor has promised further changes, including improvements in oversight, when parliament reconvenes briefly before the election. However, these are unlikely to tackle essential privacy concerns by users and the industry.

Tech firms in the US, Canada, UK and New Zealand will be watching closely.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I'm not seeing a consensus that they're at least a year ahead of everyone else. The reality is that a number of countries will be introducing 5G over the coming years, including those that have banned Huawei. Where they're not banned, they don't dominate the market in a way that would suggest they're clearly the best or only option.



If you say so.

The ft.com article is paywalled; as for the other two, I have reasons to doubt their figures. For example, the claim that Didi's 25 million rides per day are roughly twice as many as the rest combined is belied by Uber's
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15 million trips per day. Adding the other apps, there's no way that Didi's number can be double their total.

I mantain the view that excluding Huawei will not hurt American business, as it won't delay 5G deployment. It's true that China has a larger domestic market (by user/consumer number, if not by value), but American Internet companies have a massive advantage in the rest of the world, where Chinese competitors are almost nonexistent, and a notable technological advantage.

There are a few industry articles on how Huawei 5G kit is a year ahead of anyone else.

Yes, all countries will be introducing 5G over the coming years. I'm not saying that Huawei will dominate 5G. But I'm saying that Chinese companies can dominate the downstream industries that depend on 5G access.

On the FT Article, why don't you pay to get past the firewall and actually read the article before dismissing it? You might as well dismiss the Wall Street Journal whilst you're at it.

On Uber/Didi, are you being intentionally stupid? The Didi figure is from Feb 2018 whilst the Uber figure you quote is for Dec 2018. That is almost a year of growth time for Uber.

And if you don't believe authoritative sources like CNBC or Wired, then why don't you go find your own sources?
Then you can argue with them on how they are wrong and reporting fake news.

No, China has a larger market than the US in most industries. This is not just in numbers, but in value as well, if you actually look at it.

And why did American internet companies have a global advantage in downstream tech companies in the past?
It was because the US market was much bigger than its closest competitors.
So US companies benefited from larger network/scale effects, and could also just buy out their smaller foreign competitors or bankrupt them.

Plus the NSF reported to Congress that China is spending more on R&D in 2018 than the USA. So we can expect China and the US to become technological equals in the future. You can go argue with the NSF if you disagree.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
There are a few industry articles on how Huawei 5G kit is a year ahead of anyone else.

Yes, all countries will be introducing 5G over the coming years. I'm not saying that Huawei will dominate 5G. But I'm saying that Chinese companies can dominate the downstream industries that depend on 5G access.

On the FT Article, why don't you pay to get past the firewall and actually read the article before dismissing it? You might as well dismiss the Wall Street Journal whilst you're at it.

On Uber/Didi, are you being intentionally stupid? The Didi figure is from Feb 2018 whilst the Uber figure you quote is for Dec 2018. That is almost a year of growth time for Uber.

And if you don't believe authoritative sources like CNBC or Wired, then why don't you go find your own sources?
Then you can argue with them on how they are wrong and reporting fake news.

No, China has a larger market than the US in most industries. This is not just in numbers, but in value as well, if you actually look at it.

And why did American internet companies have a global advantage in downstream tech companies in the past?
It was because the US market was much bigger than its closest competitors.
So US companies benefited from larger network/scale effects, and could also just buy out their smaller foreign competitors or bankrupt them.

Plus the NSF reported to Congress that China is spending more on R&D in 2018 than the USA. So we can expect China and the US to become technological equals in the future. You can go argue with the NSF if you disagree.
Don't bother Andrew. You can't wake those pretending to sleep.
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
There are a few industry articles on how Huawei 5G kit is a year ahead of anyone else.
But you won't link them?

Yes, all countries will be introducing 5G over the coming years. I'm not saying that Huawei will dominate 5G. But I'm saying that Chinese companies can dominate the downstream industries that depend on 5G access.
If their competitors' 5G deployment isn't delayed, that's half of their theoretical sources of advantage gone.

On the FT Article, why don't you pay to get past the firewall and actually read the article before dismissing it? You might as well dismiss the Wall Street Journal whilst you're at it.
I'm not dismissing anything. I can't address something I can't read. Obviously I don't intend to pay for that article.

On Uber/Didi, are you being intentionally stupid? The Didi figure is from Feb 2018 whilst the Uber figure you quote is for Dec 2018. That is almost a year of growth time for Uber.
Calling somebody stupid while making things up? Do you have a source that shows Uber's figure is from December 2018? I know you don't, because I could easily find it mentioned earlier. It's actually from
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.

And if you don't believe authoritative sources like CNBC or Wired, then why don't you go find your own sources?
Then you can argue with them on how they are wrong and reporting fake news.
I just easily showed that authoritative sources can be wrong.

No, China has a larger market than the US in most industries. This is not just in numbers, but in value as well, if you actually look at it.
I have looked at it and I disagree with your conclusion. I once already spent too much time on this (five pages between here and here).

And why did American internet companies have a global advantage in downstream tech companies in the past?
It was because the US market was much bigger than its closest competitors.
So US companies benefited from larger network/scale effects, and could also just buy out their smaller foreign competitors or bankrupt them.
That and they were actually first and best for most things. Plus, they now also have huge scale outside their home country. Google has eight services with over a billion users.

Plus the NSF reported to Congress that China is spending more on R&D in 2018 than the USA. So we can expect China and the US to become technological equals in the future. You can go argue with the NSF if you disagree.
So, China is spending more on R&D (with a PPP adjustment). Sure. We can expect the two countries to become technological equals in the future? Maybe, depending on a lot of things. Also very much depends on the time frame, with many areas where it won't happen for at least five or ten years.

Don't bother Andrew. You can't wake those pretending to sleep.
The nice thing about this saying is that it can apply to anyone.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
Some suspect that the Huawei arrest was the response to the PRC who have denied return of a family of American citizens a mother and some children who visited the PRC because their Ex Husband and father is wanted by the PRC.

For the record it's not a kangaroo court;
she is in a extradition hearing pending her actual day in court.
" Kangaroo court" is a often misused term. For a court that ignores the laws and standards or has little actual power in the nation or state it is held in. Or intentionally disregards it's duty and obligations to the laws.
There is no indication of either thus far.

IMO The US is too willing to let people hide behind citizenship through naturalization to escape justice.

In NZ when people apply for citizenship or residency they have to declare that they have never been employed or engaged in behavior that could jeopardize their application. Surely the U.S. has a similar stipulation in the application process? In this case, the father was the ringleader of a giant bank fraud.
I while ago we had a European couple's residency rescinded and they and their NZ born children were sent back to Germany, because the father had a conviction in Germany for smoking a bit of 'weed' yrs earlier which for which he failed to declare.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
IMO The US is too willing to let people hide behind citizenship through naturalization to escape justice.
That is... off topic for what I was discussing. However it doesn't seem to be "Justice" if the sins of the father are to be paid for by the children.
When does that stop? If my great grandad commits a crime am I guilty by extension?
 
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